View Full Version : Garry Warne Interview on Australian TV
http://www.abc.net.au/4corners/content/2005/s1419526.htm
I think interviewer's understanding of issues are a bit too simplistic, but I like how she asks lots of questions.
By the way, numbers Warne gives out in the first three answers don't add up. Hahaha.
G. In the study we compared 50 people with intersex conditions now aged 18 to 32,...
G. It’s about 1 in 4,500 babies so in the State of Victoria, that would be one a month.And only 50 people for a long term follow up study? Where are the other people?
Q. You’re damned if you do and you’re damned if you don’t?
G. Look a very senior colleague told me years ago, he said ‘Garry in this field it doesn’t matter what you decide, you’ll be wrong’.
Right you are... so stop doing it wrong... stop taking decisions for other people.
Q. So what were the results of that study?
G. In the study we compared 50 people with intersex conditions now aged 18 to 32, with two control groups with other medical conditions and we looked at quality of life issues, satisfaction with body, general health, mental health and sexual issues and we found that the intersex group had a quality of life as good as the other two groups and that there was no greater incidents of anxiety or depression.
Q. So what does that say to you?
G. Well it says to me that they have a life that’s not much different, in terms of general happiness and health, to the rest of the community and that our policy at this hospital of team work, of multi disciplinary team, plenty of support for families, open communication and excellent surgery has worked.
Q. So what is the AIS support group going on about when they say how badly they’ve been treated by doctors and how unhappy people are with surgery? Where are they coming from?
G. Well I think that they’re unfortunately a group of people who have had bad experiences and who feel empowered by belonging to a group and making their presence known.
Q. Why don’t their bad experiences then correlate with your study?
G. Um I think that because the people that have had good experiences don’t bother joining such groups.
Speechless....
Groeten, Miriam
This is simply a bizarre interview. I especially like this part: congenital adrenal hypoplasia they should be fertile as women so I believe that they should have surgery early in life to make them girls.
Well, and here I always thought the size of the clitoris had no bearing on fertility :tongue:
The interview refers to "congenital adrenal hypoplasia". I have heard of "congenital adrenal hyperplasia" but am left wondered about the symptoms of "congenital adrenal hypoplasia". I am curious to know if Garry Warne included any subjects with "congenital adrenal hypoplasia" in his study.
Peter
It's likely a translation mistake as it is the text from an on-camera interview. It's not an intersex condition.
Betsy
Dana Gold
07-21-05, 05:01 PM
but am left wondered about the symptoms of "congenital adrenal hypoplasia".
X-linked adrenal hypoplasia congenita
Affected males typically have delayed puberty (onset after 14 years of age) caused by hypogonadotropic hypogonadism (HH). Males are infertile despite treatment with exogenous gonadotropin therapy or pulsatile gonadotropin-releasing hormone (GnRH). Carrier females may occasionally have symptoms of adrenal insufficiency or hypogonadotropic hypogonadism.
Typically, affected individuals have hyponatremia, hyperkalemia, hypoglycemia, acidosis, very elevated serum concentration of ACTH, and increased urinary excretion of sodium.
http://www.geneclinics.org/servlet/access?id=8888891&key=iJQXIkftLDQmA&gry=INSERTGRY&fcn=y&fw=AaGX&filename=/profiles/ahc/index.html
:pizza:
Hi Betsy,
I would like to know if it is a translation mistake. It would be interesting to see the original tape. At first, I thought that it was a translation mistake, but found that the term "adrenal hypoplasia" occurs several times in the interview rather than just once. Also, as the widely used MS-Word spell check program routinely recommends replacing "hypoplasia" with "hyperplasia", I would hesitate to think that it is a translation mistake. Many other medical terms are correctly spelled. Until I see evidence to the contrary, I will presume the transcript to be accurate.
Peter
Sunshine1
07-21-05, 05:41 PM
Hi Besty,
How you doing! I've always been for the parents knowing All the options for their children then making the best choice for their individual child and personal beliefs of that family structure. This is only my opinion of a way that would help with advancing the benefit of at least Congenital Adrenal Hyperplasia.
I was under the impression that adrenal hyperplasia and adrenal hypoplasia were two different conditions? and hypoplasia is considered much more rare than hyperplasia and I though that hypoplasia wasn't a surgery consideration, I'm not that sure about that part but I do know that in an emergency that both require cortisone. Maybe hyperplasia goes by hypoplasia in Europe? hyper=thickening of the adrenal gland, hypo= lack of the cortisol..so it all works. I'm not a doctor and I'm sure that wasn't a mistake on his part because something as important as an interview about our surgeries.. well one would hope that at least the name of the condition would be right? For all I know, hypoplasia is somehow surgically related also but maybe it's just a typo-. I have celiac sprue which goes by a couple of names also and that hashimoto thyroid condition goes by a few other names as well. It's all good.
If family structures were allowed to consider all surgery options and not thought of it in one way or another by the groups presenting them? Then I think oh how sweet it would be. For me age five was good ..the best possible time ..a brilliant judgement call but still not without problems. They talk about earlier at two surgery because it is easier to do which makes sense but I also read about early trauma that humans ..todddlers are subjected to and since they can't verbalize this trauma but still feel, this experience has them later wanting to address the trauma that becasue it was done early feels know like a gaping hole. You hear the parents"Ummm she is so angry and we don't know why"
With CAH all you here is that surgery is done to allow for possible fertility.. that is what is stressed. We are getting prepped to be fucked by someone and we are still kids... what a conditon! Surgery to allow for period flow ..is necessary based on how you were born being and the time for that is based on the family perspective. My mom was like why on earth would someone have surgery done on their child for an enlarged clitoris but when you are born with genital where your period goes through the clitoris wanna be phallus clitorophallus lol yes then it's a blessing to have some surgeons that want to help you. Surgical technique back then was improving because the clitorectomy wasn't the best thing in the would but the vaginoplasty was a good job. Oh the trauma these people had in the past ....hummm they don't like are traumatized by sex? Ok Traumatized by medical genital exams, Traumatized by the focus of being a lab rat that has the possiblity of fertility of having reproduction becasue of their importance of it and shush not inculde the subject lab rat in on this but watch what it does to study. THEY ASK? Do you sleep with men...do you have significant others? Do you sleep with men or women ? THE REAL QUESTION TO ASK is do you feel fucking manipulated by us or did we brain wash you enough? Sexual intercourse is like an unspoken check off on the CAH exam and the fact you have symptoms for something else? like pain bleeding is no cause for concern and all in the rat's head untill it actually becomes serious. Thanks for the cortisone so I don't croak when I have the flu but damn that is like an oversite and then there is the the otherside that is hoping that we after all the surgery and cortisone that helps the adrenal gland and really nothing more than that we still decide to jump gender for whatever reason and I'm sure that some do and more power to them but it isn't the majority of us or most of us ..or whatever fuck is this the only birth defect that has suck lines drawn? Support for one and support for all. All the studies by both sides go on and on how we are male inclined this or that but when you meet actually women with CAH ..SWCAH or SVCAH then you realize the whole person Biotch ...where the hell did she get that cool lipstick ..and damn I am so jealous of that hairstyle ..all those studies are so one demention and miss everything about us that makes us people. No wonder students and doctors look at us like fucking specimens becasue of these studies and it makes it easier for other condiitons that we have to be missed.
Shame crap? regardless of surgery teach the kid some self esteem then shame gone poof but that is just my opinion Sliced up because of others biases. No amount of surgery will change how others think why should someone have to go through that to please someone that didn't like them in the first place because those type of people will always have somethingto pick at I had surgery don't you like me now? nope ..don't like your body type or this or this or the way you think ..those aren't the people to be with.
As for my body shape? Shortest person on the volley ball team that gave that volley ball some teeth when I served it and the other side would scatter. Sure had some extra hair in high school ...was teased for it by some and others accepted me the way I was and that extra hair did go away.
I like doctors and need them but as a group shouldn't assume that we all want the same when it comes to our conditions or if we don't agree with the experts then we have something wrong. What is the fuck with that? It's it their job to learn to help the individual patient. They need to stop assuming , I like the way I was born many kids do and I'm angry of the must be traumatized by it because not born like the general population. I'm angry that they can't see that yeah some of us I guess and to me it's external that they are ashamed about the way they look but don't do surgery on us all for it. I'm angry that yes I didn't have trouble with the way I looked but am told otherwise by people that weren't born with CAH that how I felt about viewed myself well that isn't true.. for me surgery was something for health function but the focus was we are fixing you for social acceptance and for penatrative sex the way the doctors want. Sex is a trauma when it comes with all the baggage of having surgery done and being examed for the purpose you were sliced open for but sex when you want to apreciate,experience, and bond with the other person is beautiful because that is from the mind. I think the experts only want to hear the ashamed ones because it makes all this surgery right all the time. Parents aren't given enough credit in all this and should be able to decide what is best for the little being they are responsible for based on the whole spectrum of services available to their child.
I hate the divide and after talking with a parent about a true friend with CAH that made a presentation that was wonderful about the surgery but later on she called me and added so much more that really spoke of her deep feelings about CAH and wanting to be loved for her true self. Like me she understood the need for the surgeries but was looking for acceptance of what it really feels to have the condition but knew the unwritten rule of you say certain things to parents and doctors because that is where the approval is and anything else isn't allowed. How can this condiiton advance if we have to do this? and if we don't we are critisized and thought of as off when all we want to do is share our views like people with other conditions. Fuck this stigma crap that is tossed out at us. I've been to shrinks and they think I'm fine but bring up genital surgery at say your endo' s office any endo's office and try to talk about it? the subject will be changed so quick..it's crazy. That's in the past...they say BUT that area is something people use everyday other people are allowed to bring up surgical operations but this one shush gosh you even bring up vaginal stenosis please !!!!
I've gone through gyno cancer (not that intersex condiitons are like cancer) and one thing that I've noticed that other condiitons are allowed to talk and diss and dish lol but this on forget about it because any issue that we have is minimized to well every may have that what is all well and good but constricts us in coming together as a complete group to support each other with CAH. here is a safe example some of us are fat becasue of the med ..the experts will go many people with out CAH are fat what of it ? when what would really help is knowing of someone with CAH that is thinner because of certain ideas they are following that work. To be able to dish with someone else that has CAH about sex is fun because it's bonding over an experience that was made more difficult by the nature of the condition and the people that want to learn about it. We have the experts going they are no different than anyone else well yes and no .. i think we are actually better in bed with who we are married to, really like, partnership ect. and find a comfort in comparing notes to others with CAH on how we do in this area. But the experts want just to see it as someone that never went through anything in this area like they want to hide what was done and I feel that is insensitive to someone with any medical condiiton. When someone has gyno cancer, having sex again is a big concern and those feelings are ackknowledged by the oganizations and medical teams that care for them and not minimized like for a female with CAH.
thanks besty becasue you've always written these are my views and if someone has other views feel free to express them.You want your voice heard and have always been open to other voices being heard.
peace,
Aimee
Dana Gold
07-21-05, 05:44 PM
Quote passage from article:
G. Yes 90 per cent of the children born with ambiguous genitalia have one of two most common conditions: one is an adrenal disorder where an unborn female baby would be exposed to male hormones coming from the adrenal glands, which cause her genitalia to develop like a boy’s genitalia.
Q. What’s that condition called?
G. That’s called congenital adrenal hypoplasia and 1 in 14,000 babies has got that.
It would be impossible for an 46XX child to have hyper-masculinization due to adrenal insufficiency and consequent under-production of DHEA (precursor to steroid sex hormon production). It would be more likely that the child would be under-feminized with pubertal delay due to her hypogonadism; as would the boy be under-masculinized due to his insufficient androgens. Adrenal insufficiency would not cause clitoromegaly, rather under-developed female (and male) reproductive organs along with various endocrinopathies....the hypogonadism mentioned in my prior post's link/webpage elaborates the relationship of adrenal insufficiency and pituitary dysfunction (hypogonadotropic hypogonadism), which is another aspect of this syndrome....with consequent additive effect of lowering of sex hormones production from the gonads.
:pizza:
I would like to know if it is a translation mistake. It would be interesting to see the original tape. At first, I thought that it was a translation mistake, but found that the term "adrenal hypoplasia" occurs several times in the interview rather than just once. Also, as the widely used MS-Word spell check program routinely recommends replacing "hypoplasia" with "hyperplasia", I would hesitate to think that it is a translation mistake. Many other medical terms are correctly spelled. Until I see evidence to the contrary, I will presume the transcript to be accurate.
Given that it was a problem with the transcribed reports from the SF HRC Public Hearing, why do you think it would be that difficult? How long did it take for that to be corrected?
Betsy
Hi Betsy,
You might very well be correct. However, in case of the HRC transcripts, they were summaries of oral testimony, and not professionally prepared verbatim text. I would like to see the evidence. If there are transcription errors, then I think that an apology/correction from the news organization that ran the printed story is in order. But you work in the news industry, so you know how retractions work better than I do. So.... I guess that I will wait around and see if an apology/correction is forthcoming.
Peter
Given that this endo is considered one of the "premiere" ones in Australia, I highly doubt he doesn't know the difference between hyper and hypo.
Perhaps one of our Australian posters will watch the program on the 25th of this month and report back on what he really said.
It would be up to Warne to notify the producers of the program of the error. I have no clue what the policy of ABC in Australia is regarding them. In the US, it's generally done if they are afraid of being sued because of it, or it if changes the substance of the story. Obviously, in this situation, given that hypoplasia is not an intersex condition, it changes it, but again, it would be up to the person being quoted to correct it.
If you're are not sure Peter, or think he actually said hypoplasia, write him and ask. I've always found folks willing to respond to messages such as that.
I can tell you from experience that professional transcription services screw up all the time. In fact, I would expect them to screw up before the HRC transcriptions got screwed up because you guys doing that are familiar with it and those folks probably are not.
Betsy
I've kinda been waiting to see if anyone caught the error of Warne calling J. Money an American. Please don't blame us for him...he was born and raised in New Zealand. I remember my mom calling him "that Australian SOB" during the times we talked about me growing up and what happened.
Betsy
Given that this endo is considered one of the "premiere" ones in Australia
Betsy,I have never heard of him before,most probably due to him being a Victorian first and an Australian second and as is evident from the interview,Victorians are in a world all of their own :cool:
Perhaps one of our Australian posters will watch the program on the 25th of this month and report back on what he really said.
Don't hold your breath :bat: I work nights so,will most probably not be watching,besides don't you know T.V is bad for your health :pizza:
ciao
Canice.
Please don't blame us for him...he was born and raised in New Zealand. I remember my mom calling him "that Australian SOB"
There is a difference you know,NZ is that little island off the east coast of Australia,where men are men and sheep are running scared.
Q. You’re damned if you do and you’re damned if you don’t?
G. Look a very senior colleague told me years ago, he said ‘Garry in this field it doesn’t matter what you decide, you’ll be wrong’.
Wrong whatever, but pro-surgery anyway. It hardly fits with "do no harm". How arrogant.
M
Here's the AIS side of the story:
http://www.abc.net.au/4corners/content/2005/s1420244.htm
Betsy
Quote:
Perhaps one of our Australian posters will watch the program on the 25th of this month and report back on what he really said.
Don't hold your breath I work nights so,will most probably not be watching,besides don't you know T.V is bad for your health
No Tivo or VCR?
Betsy
Q. You’re damned if you do and you’re damned if you don’t?
G. Look a very senior colleague told me years ago, he said ‘Garry in this field it doesn’t matter what you decide, you’ll be wrong’.
Wrong whatever, but pro-surgery anyway. It hardly fits with "do no harm". How arrogant.
M
Totally off-topic but here's another way some doctors follow the 'first do no harm" edict:
http://villagevoice.com/news/0530,hentoff,66177,6.html
Dana Gold
07-22-05, 03:42 PM
The good news abiout doctors and "torture"
http://www.psr.org/home.cfm?id=torturedoctors
Now, if only these same principles (human dignity, basically) could be applied to ALL human beings:
Excerpt from article link below:
One of the darkest threads in postwar US imperial history has been the CIA's involvement with torture, as instructor, practitioner or contractor. Since its inception the CIA has taken a keen interest in torture, avidly studying Nazi techniques and protecting their exponents such as Klaus Barbie. The CIA's official line is that torture is wrong and is ineffective. It is indeed wrong. On countless occasions it has been appallingly effective
As part of its larger MK-ULTRA project the CIA gave money to Dr. Ewen Cameron, at McGill University. Cameron was a pioneer in the sensory-deprivation techniques. Cameron once locked up a woman in a small white box for thirty-five days, deprived of light, smell and sound. The CIA doctors were amazed at this dose, knowing that their own experiments with a sensory-deprivation tank in 1955 had induced severe psychological reactions in less than forty hours. Start torturing, and it's easy to get carried away.
…….snip…………………………………..
In recent years the United States has been charged by the UN and also by human rights organizations such as Human Rights Watch and Amnesty International with tolerating torture in US prisons, by methods ranging from solitary, twenty-three-hour-a-day confinement in concrete boxes for years on end, to activating 50,000-volt shocks through a mandatory belt worn by prisoners? Many of the Military Police guards now under investigation for abuse of Iraqis earned their stripes working as guards in federal and state prisons, where official abuse is a daily occurence. .............snip...............
And as a practical matter torture is far from unknown in the interrogation rooms of U.S. law enforcement, with Abner Louima, sodomized by a cop using a stick one notorious recent example. The most infamous disclosure of consistent torture by a police department in recent years concerned cops in Chicago in the mid-70s through early 80s who used electroshock, oxygen deprivation, hanging on hooks, the bastinado and beatings of the testicles. The torturers were white and their victims black or brown. A prisoner in California's Pelican Bay State Prison was thrown into boiling water. Others get 50,000-volt shocks from stun guns.
The article then goes on to mention rape and sexual abuse.
http://thereitis.org/displayarticle236.html
What is strikingly blatant and awful about these tortures and other “interrogation” and “security measures” is that sexual humiliation, abuse, and assault is integral to those processes……..SEX.....humankind's perverse fascination with and power-wielding of (correct and control) through abuse of people's anatomic and psychological sex...........
:confused6
And getting back on topic...
Here's the trans interview:
http://www.abc.net.au/4corners/content/2005/s1420395.htm
HI all the following is from the papers in australia today, (note that re A in australia gives family court powers over intersex surgeries in australia too)
regards guy
SOURCE:
The Sydney Sunday Telegraph,
2 Holt Street, Surry Hills,
Sydney, NSW 2010,
Australia.
Telephone: + 61-2-9288-3000
Fax.: + 61-2-9288-2300
http://www.dailytelegraph.news.com.au/
http://sundaytelegraph.news.com.au/story/0,9353,16026922-28778,00.html
Teens in fight for sex change
July 24, 2005
AT least six NSW teenagers are planning legal action to change their sex
following a Family Court decision to allow a 13-year-old boy to become a girl.
Change
Not out of place: Christie North at her Melbourne home
In an application supported by his parents, the Sydney boy recently won the
court's permission to take puberty-blocking chemicals to stop developing an
adult male's body.
His lawyer, Rachael Wallbank, says the next step is to take oestrogen at 16
to feminise the body with the option of having sex-change surgery after
turning 18.
The case follows the Family Court's precedent-setting decision last year to
allow a 13-year-old girl, "Alex", to become a boy.
The issue will be covered by the ABC's Four Corners program tomorrow night.
Ms Wallbank, herself a transsexual, said six teenagers in NSW were "lining
up" to undergo similar treatment. She said they felt trapped in the wrong
gender and were sure of what they wanted.
"There is no confusion – it's certainty in the face of every other
obstacle, and it's unchanging," said Ms Wallbank, who will also appear in
the Four Corners program.
But the decisions have created controversy with some doctors and ethicists
claiming the teenagers are too young to make such decisions and the court
should not be approving them.
Bio-ethicist Dr Nicholas Tonti-Filippini said allowing teenagers to change
sex was horrendous and defied psychiatric opinion that indicated they often
regretted the decision later.
"It's bad enough for young people in their 20s but to see that happening to
children is quite horrific," Dr Tonti-Filippini told The Sunday Telegraph
last week.
He said the Family Court was ill-equipped to determine such matters.
But Family Court Chief Justice Diana Bryant told The Sunday Telegraph the
court had no predisposition towards granting sex changes to teenagers.
"Each case is judged on its merits," she said.
Justice Bryant acknowledged that the issue was controversial but said the
court had a welfare jurisdiction that gave it the right to make such decisions.
The children are among as many as 40,000 Australians who suffer what
medical experts have labelled "intersex" conditions.
Twenty-six-year-old Melbourne woman Christie North, who was born with male
chromosomes and internal testes, said she did not feel out of place.
"It just affects me in that I cannot have kids and I don't get a period,"
she said.
The Sunday Telegraph
Can anyone tell me if there is a difference between intersex conditons and transsexuality? From the article posted by Guy I understand that there is no difference... :(
Sorry, Christie North, thanks to some transsexual cowards and a journalist who did a bad job, chances are that quite a few people will think that you are a transsexual. Once crap has been published in a newspaper or on the Internet, it has become a “fact”. And it is extremely difficult to convince other people that it is still crap.
Well, this is what happens if an “I” will be added to GLBT... Too many T's want to include us only because they want to be I. Why can't they understand that the issues we have to deal with, are not the same issues they have to deal with? For women with AIS there is no reason to tell other people that they have an intersex condition: we are quite good looking and feel just like any other women. And if transpeople try to steal the word "intersex" there will be even less women with AIS who want to tell others about their intersex condition.
Sometimes I feel it's about time to go back in the woodwork of secrecy... May be it’s true… may be women with AIS have more to lose than to gain with publicity about intersex conditions.
Groeten, Miriam
variations of the above article have appeared across most of australia today.
guy
Sunshine1
07-24-05, 03:31 PM
Transexual vs Intersex medical conditions how do they compare? How do they contrast?
Aimee
Miriam raises some interesting issues. The article does conflate intersex people and transsexual people. It says about young transsexuals: "The children are among as many as 40,000 Australians who suffer what medical experts have labeled "intersex" conditions." It does not explain the differences.
I am not sure that the answer is better public education about the differences between intersex people and transsexual people. I use the word "differences" with some caution, because there are intersex people who are also transsexual. Public education may not be enough, because it seems that a significant number of transsexual people want to be considered intersex. It gets into a whole range of issues around so called lifestyle choices, wherein narrow minded people hold that being transsexual is a bad personal choice. As stated in the article above: "Bio-ethicist Dr Nicholas Tonti-Filippini said allowing teenagers to change sex was horrendous and defied psychiatric opinion that indicated they often regretted the decision later." Psychiatric opinion is just that, and there is no real scientific evidence for wide spread "regret". This appears to be another case of an ethicist behaving badly. So, if one wants to escape the stigma of one's life being labeled a lifestyle choice, it would make sense to say that it is not a choice and one is born transsexual. And looking around, one might notice that people are not saying that being intersex is a choice, so it would be better to be intersex. (I do not believe that being transsexual is a choice.) This seems to be part of the motivation for transsexual people identifying as intersex. As long as the oppression of transsexual people is so strong, there will remain a strong motivation for transsexual people to identify as intersex.
But on the other hand, there is not often a strong motivation for intersex people to identify as intersex. As Miriam says, it makes sense for intersex AIS women not to identify as intersex, because if they identify as intersex they might be labeled transsexuals and have to answer lots of basic questions about intersex. This appears to be the case with intersex person Christie North, who is mentioned in the article. After publication of the article, many people will probably believe that she is transsexual, and she may have to answer lots of annoying questions. Now, I suspect that she might very well get many more questions about transsexual issues than intersex issues. To me, the article only increases the overall level of ignorance about intersex issues. It's an interesting question about what motivates intersex people to publicly be intersex. In my case it is outrage over infant genital surgery and the secrecy surrounding my medical history.
BLO spends much time in an effort to further public understanding of both transsexual and intersex issues. I hope that transsexual people will spend time trying to understand intersex issues beyond immediate personal needs for social justice. Each community has its own issues.
Peter
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