I don't feel accepted. I'm out...

[Anniemac]

Well, I don't fit in with transsexuals, nor can I feel acceptance from other intersexuals. I guess I'm just an outcast. I don't want your pity and I am now leaving the forums. I just came for some answers and I got one of them. I still need the doctors for the other. I wish this place was more supportive...

~*Annie*~

[Morgan]

Hi Annie

I hope you might reconsider, I don't know if anyone here can give you answers, but you _are_ welcome :)

Morgan

[melonaide]

I think maybe alot of people are wrapped up in alot of things and I'm sure it wasn't intentional. The boards certainly aren't on the overactive side but that can be a good thing.....give you a chance to read. I felt the same way after my first reply. It was actually kinda funny.

[Wyn]

Anniemac - When I first posted here, it took 2 days before there were ANY replies. Please take into account that it's summertime, and many will only look in on the forum on occasion, if at all. Many have lives beyond this arena, and only come to see whats 'new' on an infrequent basis - I know that I did for many months.

Please know that you are very welcome here, and just that it takes time for people to respond - it is not a personal affront to you, although it may feel that way.

Regardless, Welcome - there is much to learn, if one takes the time.

All my best,
Wyn :wavey:

[Peter]

Hi Anniemac,

Welcome to Bodies Like Ours. I did not respond to your original post, because it is summertime and I am taking a break from it all. Wyn is right; it often takes several days to get a response. I would like to hear more of your story. You did not provide much initial information, so there was not much to respond to. You said sometime about being an outcast and not wanting pity. I am not sure that you are an outcast in terms of our members. And believe me; we do not hold many pity parties around here. I would encourage you to post more.

Peter

[Betsy]

Hello Anniemac,

I'm sorry that you feel rejected or not supported here. We're aren't very good at diagnosing intersex for anyone but are pretty good at offering support for some of the issues people go through when they already have a diagnosis.

I had been reading your posts and my own confusion (along with others asking about it) led me not to reply. For instance, I have no clue what you mean by going through female puberty and then male puberty?

Brain size? Another point of cluelessness for me...I must've failed Neurology 101 but hey...once when I gave a presentation, it was in a lab in a medical school and there was a plastic bucket full of brains...none were labelled by gender though. The only thing I remember about them was they were all pretty gray. I had to sneak a look during a break :sick:

And that BST region of the brain? Unless you equate yourself with ground up mice and sheep brains, it doesn't mean much in the realm of human experience. Sorry...but that is far as that research has gotten at this time.

I do know however that taking hormones can cause physiological problems that were not expected, particularly when taken away from the guidance of a medical professional.

What do you mean when you said, ...and a small penis (It's fully connected at the tip as well.)

Is it more normal to have a penis tip that is disconnected? Where would you keep it? Really, I have no clue what you meant by this and thus, didn't reply.

I've never, ever heard of someone with an actual diagnosed intersex condition being denied reassignment surgery, however in adults it is subject to the same pathway that transexuals must take.

You were welcomed by several people here in your original thread. However, no one person ever becomes the complete center of attention and if that is what you need, then yes...search on. If not, I think you will find this community to be quite welcoming and supportive, but not very good at playing doctor.

Betsy

[Anniemac]

First, I want to tell you why I left and it isn't because of lack of responses or center of attention. I don't want more attention than anyone else and I did get a fairly good amount of replies as well. The reason I had left was because I felt like I was being mocked. I just want to be like any other girl out there. (However hyper I may get, but that's another story altogether.) I'm back because of the comfort that Dr Kathleen Becker gave me in a letter. (Thank you by the way.)

Next,

>What do you mean when you said,
...and a small penis (It's fully connected at the tip as well.)
Is it more normal to have a penis tip that is disconnected? Where would you keep it? Really, I have no clue what you meant by this and thus, didn't reply.<

OMG! That's great! I laughed hysterically when I saw that one! Anyways, what I meant was that I don't have hypospadias. Now that I looked up the name of that one, I think I intenvertantly discovered what I have. I think I may have CAH. (The description on http://www.isna.org/faq/conditions/cah sounds EXACTLY like what I have.) The doctors did a CT-Scan on my adrenal glands and now I'm trying to find out the results.

Oh, by the way, look at http://bst.cjb.net to see what I meant by the information I gave you on the brain.

[Dana Gold]

Welcome to BLO, Annie! :wavey: I used to greet every new member with the first and introductory post. However, I found myself missing some newcomers while replying to others, which I felt to be unfair. And then some would post once or twice, and "poof" would never post again for no discernible reason whatsoever. So, nowadays, I most often will wait a little bit to get a clearer picture on "where they're coming from"....and then usually say something of practical value in addition to "welcome". Some newcomers are soooo confusing and vague, one doesn't know exactly what to say initially.
Anyway, as Betsy also said; some come here to seek medical, surgical, and psychological advice, to which many of us here cannot reasonably and fairly answer....or if we try to.... then that person may become too dependant upon us (or argumentative with us) , often skewing the advice to their own perception of what they have or should have done to.....which is not right either, and may lead to negative health consequences for that person , or rancor and spite from various of the parties involved.. Such diagnosing/treatment is ultimately a job for qualified doctors and psychologists. However what we can do is share our experiences, resources, and knowledge, and encourage each other to carry on with our unique individual lives; with the realization that in cyberspace support activities, there may be some occassional misunderstanding due to the 2-dimensional nature of it.
Anyway, once again, welcome and take care.

Dana

[Betsy]

OMG! That's great! I laughed hysterically when I saw that one!

I almost asked if one carries the tip of their penis in their pocket or if it had something to do with the reason some male people like to grab their crotch with my new found assumption the tip was falling off :interesti

Much of the 'meaningful' work on the BST regions I am familiar has been done by Vilain in his quest for discovering the 'gender gene'. That research has involved the dissecting of mice brains. To the best of my knowledge, mice don't exactly pursue "gender expression". I view this kind of stuff with the same raised eyebrow I do for people attempting to discover why some people are gay and that is a "be careful what you wish for" mantra. A major issue I have with the research done on humans is that it ignores the influence of the life lived...hormones, drugs---legal or not, bumps on the head, prior illnesses, etc. Brains do change over time...just ask any schizophrenic person or any drug addict. I may be completely off base on that observation but the skeptic in me won't go away, unless I chase it away.

Betsy

[Sunshine1]

Dear Annie,

You seem like an upbeat person who is looking for answers. Sorry, I don't have any but Endocrinologist if you haven't already got one are the doctors that study Congenital Adrenal Hyperplasia ...thyroid ...ect maybe you have an intersex medical condition or not. Just know you are worth something always. CAH is found by blood test for excessive androgens and cortisol levels ...I forget Betsy ..is it the ACTH stimulation test or something like that? Are you anywhere near the University of OHIO? Anywhere with a med school would help you find answers.

Just for my own curiosity, How tall are you? are you on the muscular side or slight frame. I was thinking of an intersex condtion but not CAH.You seem perky and fun.... made me smile. I don't post as much because of medical issues from the thyroid and hope knock on wood prior cancer. The CAH held up pretty well through all this and I'm gratful.

Your word choice wasn't my cup of tea ...not an intersexual here ..do I have a medical condition that may cause an external body part to have the descriptive term of intersex sure but is intersexual a moniker? nope.
Female pseudo hermaphrodite secondary to CAH ..that's what it said on my medical records from 1970 ..the good old days but that word isn't so trendy.

I would like to hear more about your story also.

take care,

Aimee

[Dana Gold]

Brains do change over time.

Supposedly neuronal tissue does not regenerate as in self-healing and "birth" of new brain cells. I.E. once it's gone, it's gone. However, Betsy your citing the brain changes is quite logical; the brain changes all the time and in conjunction with what's going on physically, including bio-constituent levels which are influenced by just about any of life's experiences. Drugs and alcohol influence endocrine levels and cause structural changes within the cortex, stress activates the amygdala, oxytocin, cortisol, and various catecholamines, trauma...no secret there; amnesia, seizures. Whether all these specifically influence gender is just about as speculative as the research you mentioned because both are based on medical changes. I would , however, agree that the self interacting with the environment and body/brain changes and one's own volition ALL combine together to influence and put the "finishing touches" on self-identity (to include gender) which I term the scaffolding to the intrinsic foundation which began in the womb....a sort of interacting circle within a circle.

Anyway, the med/psychers would have one believe there is a nice clean universal reason for all gender expressions, but since everyone is an individual bio-organism (except identical twins) there are just too many life variables (physical/psychological) that can occur....as well as unforeseen phenomena in adulthood that affect endocrine physiology (pituitary anomalies, dysfunction in reproductive organs etc)....and add to the brain physiology and neuronal networking. One camp says genes are sole cause, another hormones, another brain structures, etc. One's own volition with psycho-social and physiologic/anatomic evolution is often over-looked. And then there are sooo many variations of gender/sexuality expressions, even among a certain "group category" of the so-called umbrellas. . Not to belittle the research, there is some value to it, but it is not the whole truth to the matter, I believe. And yes, you make a good point...once "they" find a "universal" cause, they will in earnest seek a universal cure ...an ominous thought, but one I believe would happen......."correct and control", on the march to protect and preserve what "they" fervently believe in.

Oh!!....Annie, I apologize :embaresse that I interjected my science- nerdishness within this thread, supposedly your welcome thread...I get carried away :bounce: :happydanc with myself and with my "science nerd" and "correct and control" rants and views :redface:

[Peter]

And that BST region of the brain? Unless you equate yourself with ground up mice and sheep brains, it doesn't mean much in the realm of human experience. Sorry...but that is far as that research has gotten at this time.

As I understand it, the BST region of the brain has been found to be different in transsexuals. But how can you tell if mice or sheep are transsexual? Do you look for crossdressing mice? For the results to be meaningful, it seems that human brains would have had to have been studied. I know that some snails are hermaphrodites, but that is a different issue. Does anyone have a quick update on the state of BST research?

Peter

[miriam]

Much of the 'meaningful' work on the BST regions I am familiar has been done by Vilain in his quest for discovering the 'gender gene'. That research has involved the dissecting of mice brains. To the best of my knowledge, mice don't exactly pursue "gender expression".

http://www.symposion.com/ijt/ijtc0106.htm

http://www-unix.oit.umass.edu/~gjdlab/pdf/JNeurosci2002NIH.pdf

Groeten, Miriam

[miriam]

http://www.confluere.com/store/pdf-zn/intrchg-03.pdf

(read the article that starts on page 23)

Groeten, Miriam

[miriam]

http://www.confluere.com/store/pdf-zn/intrchg-03.pdf

(read the article that starts on page 23)

Groeten, Miriam

OOPS... i mean page 26 of the PDF document ( = page 24 of the magazine). Sorry...

groeten, Miriam

[Dana Gold]

the BST region of the brain has been found to be different in transsexuals

I'm not quite sure that the research shows that all transsexuals (i.e. those who transition) have such BST regions, nor can the research show that all who have BST regions would be transsexuals...do some who are non-trans or non-gender dysphoric have such BST regions? If one applies the scientific method, then those factors would have to ruled out before assuming BST = TS. Besides, like it has been mentioned ....if BST and other areas are found to be the unequivocal reason for transsexuality......then we're in deep sh*t, because then there will be brain surgery to prevent or cure the "disease"...abnormal BST etiology = "psychosis" etc. All this *#@<hidden>*%# analysis of trans, gay etc. Why don't "they" apply such fervor and energy to researching the "cause" of so-called hetero-sexuality?....might find some surprises there....and that , of course would be in accord with the scientific methodology, as the "control group"....hee, hee, a "little play on words", yes? :rolleye13 ....and why can't "they" just let us live, we have much more to fear from "them" than they ever will from us......the *&*%#&s!! :sarcastic :sarcastic

:pizza:

[Anniemac]

Dana Gold: About your appology: I LOVE learning about that stuff as well! I usually in fact end up sounding like that on occsion. I mean, I understood most everything you told me and from the context clues, I gathered the full picture. However, I think I would like to change my POV (Point of view) on my interpretation of gender. I do believe it still deals with the brain, but I think it may be the way you are. I mean that in reference to your outlook on life and what you like, your personality, behavior, and just about all of you. So, basically, it doesn't matter on what it is that causes you to be you, just be you. Thus, this is not binary in stature, lest it be rainbow! (LOL!) I mean, that it's not black and white, but it's grayscale. You can be anywhere from extremely feminine, to extremely masculine.

Sunshine1:

>You seem like an upbeat person who is looking for answers.<

I classify myself as a cheerleader type. (I even want to be one later on when I can go back to college.)

>Sorry, I don't have any but Endocrinologist if you haven't already got one are the doctors that study Congenital Adrenal Hyperplasia ...thyroid ...ect maybe you have an intersex medical condition or not.<

I've gotten an ultrasound and found nothing. (In reference to my female reproductive system.) I now have had a CT-Scan on my abdomen and need to wait for the results. (This will check my adrenal glands in reference to CAH.)

>Just know you are worth something always.<

That made my heart melt! I know I'm worth something, but I love to hear that! :)

>CAH is found by blood test for excessive androgens and cortisol levels ...I forget Betsy ..is it the ACTH stimulation test or something like that? Are you anywhere near the University of OHIO? Anywhere with a med school would help you find answers.<

This is the point of the CT-Scan. ;)

>Just for my own curiosity, How tall are you?<

5' 6"

>Are you on the muscular side or slight frame.<

Lets just say In fit into the smallest sizes I can find usually. I have only found a couple things I couldn't. (Hourglass figure, big hips, etc. It's the typical small female fram as I do have a female muscle/skelital structure.)

>I was thinking of an intersex condtion but not CAH.<

Which one?

>You seem perky and fun.... made me smile.<

Your so sweet! I love it when people note me for things like that. I just love life, love being hyper, but above all, I love to flirt with hot guys! LOL!!

>I don't post as much because of medical issues from the thyroid and hope knock on wood prior cancer. The CAH held up pretty well through all this and I'm gratful.<

I'm sorry to hear that you had those issues, but I'm glad that you got through them. Oh, and cancer is curable through alternatuive medicine. (Homeopathic/holistic) Just alkalinize your blood and lower your acid levels. This is done by a personally designed regiment for your biological structure. Just see a homeopathic/holistic practitioner immediatly and they can get you what you need. (Fruits and vegetables are alkanine foods. Stressors, anger, etc. are acidifying things.) They most likely will give you supplements. DON'T listen to the conventional world in the fact that they will tell you there isn't a cure, or they will just not mention it. (If you bring it up to ther right doctors, they will help you with getting it cured. They just can't legally say anything about it because of the FDA's and FTC's regulations.)

>Your word choice wasn't my cup of tea<

I'm sorry...

>...Not an intersexual here ..do I have a medical condition that may cause an external body part to have the descriptive term of intersex sure but is intersexual a moniker? nope.
Female pseudo hermaphrodite secondary to CAH ..that's what it said on my medical records from 1970 ..the good old days but that word isn't so trendy. <

That sounds sort of what I was like inside. I thought I was a pseudohermaphrodite at one point, but I don't have parts of both sets of genitals. I do however have a female body with an incorrect reproductive system.

>I would like to hear more about your story also.<

Well, I started out thinking I was a guy because of how I was raised. I found out about my cousine being a transsexual and cam out as one myself. (We both found out later that that wasn't the case. She was a female pseudohermaphrodite.) After believing I was one, leter I began to question my past. I looked at how I entered female puberty and then male puberty. Also, I looked at the fact that when I had an MRI a while back, (Unrelated to this issue) they told me that I had a small brain for my sex. (They then gave me a funny look.) Also, nothing looks normal genital wise. After thinking about it, I wanted to have this looked at. I had an Ultrasound. (It came back negative.) I now had a CT-Scan. (I'm waiting for the results. I should have them tommorrow.) I also read a description of CAH and it sounded quite litterally identical to what I have and I wouldn't be surprised if the test reflects this as well.

Currently, I am secure enough to type this out in the library instead of at home. I don't care what other people think of me. You'll get the most fun out of life if you don't care what other people think about you.

OK, now for my reasons of why I'm so perky! (Just for fun.) I'm a cheerleader type and have a loviong nature and when others become happy, so do I. I just think about the people who are envious of me at the same time that I help others to get where I am if they want it. (I don't want to sound concieted, but this is how people react to me. They become envious and they ask for help.) I find that I get the most pride of live when I make someone elses life easier and happier. The other night, the power was out at my condo. (Apartment style with 8 floors.) Most of the residents there are elderly people. I had two elderly women who told me that they had alot of problems. (Couldn't make it up the stairs, too dark, medications, calling for a ride to someone elses place, etc.) I helped some people out by letting them use my phone to call for a ride. I loaned someone a lighter to get upstairs after they told me that they didn't want me to go up there. When all was done, the two ladies were very happy with me and I even helped one of them get her stuff ready to leave.

The reason I told you all of this is because when people called to thank me, I was on top of the world. However, if I hurt someone, I have in fact hurt myself as well. Thus, I feel good by making others feel good. I gain more friends this way and then I feel happier. YAY! Perky cheerleader girl!!! WOOOHOO!!! LOL!

Welp, anywho, I need to go on my daily walk and have some more fun!

Your friend,

~*Annie*~

P.S. :)

[Dana Gold]

above all, I love to flirt with hot guys! LOL!!

Please be careful with such amorous adventures, not to discourage you, nor make you sad.....but to prevent a potentially harmful encounter. Some guys will take severe offense and may get violent...I know, because it happened to me..in a "convenience store"... and I was not being flirtatious, they were.... until the clerk "outed" me....and then :push:

Dana

[Sofie]

Hi Annie,
welcome to the Forum.

[Sofie]

I'm not quite sure that the research shows that all transsexuals (i.e. those who transition) have such BST regions, nor can the research show that all who have BST regions would be transsexuals...
In humans the BST region develops during adulthood, while mice are born with it.
There is also research showing, that genderspecific behaviour is not related to brain anatomy.

[Betsy]

All this *#@<hidden>*%# analysis of trans, gay etc. Why don't "they" apply such fervor and energy to researching the "cause" of so-called hetero-sexuality?....might find some surprises there....and that , of course would be in accord with the scientific methodology, as the "control group"....hee, hee, a "little play on words", yes?

Hey...I have an idea. Let's see if we can commission a study of those who read and post at the freeper site and see if we can figure out how they can believe themselves to so righteous, and yet in real life (or in internet anonymity) be such jerks?

Oh, wait...they all vote hard-core red so we would never get funding....*sigh*

Betsy

[Anniemac]

Please be careful with such amorous adventures, not to discourage you, nor make you sad.....but to prevent a potentially harmful encounter. Some guys will take severe offense and may get violent...I know, because it happened to me..in a "convenience store"... and I was not being flirtatious, they were.... until the clerk "outed" me....and then :push:

Dana

I know that most people in the gay community have this problem, but we all have medical issues and they don't qualify us as part of the gay community in my eyes. I'm streight as it is. However, I used to be a lesbian as well as a bisexual. Anyways, I just talk about it to anyone who wants to know. I mean, people are more understanding than we give them credit for. I have in fact dated two streight guys before. ALOT of guys want me and whistle at me. Me? I'm not ready for a relationship again yet. Hopefully after this mess and when I go away to college and stay in a dorm room and become a cheerleader, I'll flirt with a really hot guy who I can show me around the campus or we can do some fun stuff together! I have it all planned out for my future. Thank you for the advice though! :)

~*Annie*~

[Dana Gold]

Sigh :confused6 , the world's a playground and life is beautiful when one is young and lucky as you are......anyway, I'm too old and overly-cautious for such things....... I guess I've had enough "excitement" in my life. A quiet evening with an interesting read is my idea of a "good time"
Anyway, have fun and take care.

Dana

[Dana Gold]

a study of those who read and post at the freeper site and see if we can figure out how they can believe themselves to so righteous, and yet in real life (or in internet anonymity) be such jerks?
I wanna do the cerebral cortex research!! :bounce: However, I would require a sample of that respective tissue to prepare my histology slides and conduct my microscopy. :biggrin:
I have a feeling that, due to these peoples' "tunnel-visioned" psycho-social mentalities, I might very well find something like this:

http://www.histology-world.com/cooleffects/wobbler.html

:wink_smil

[neko2]

I've gotten an ultrasound and found nothing. (In reference to my female reproductive system.) I now have had a CT-Scan on my abdomen and need to wait for the results. (This will check my adrenal glands in reference to CAH.)
If you are taking estrogen and you have a uterus, you would likely know it. If you aren't having any kind of cramps or bleeding, you probably don't have a uterus.

In any event, ultrasound is not a reliable method for this type of diagnosis. In one study 5 out of 6 cases were missed: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=12639661&dopt=Abstract

If you really feel this is necessary, you should ask for an MRI. The article above also mentions cystourethrography (injecting x-ray contrast into the bladder) but this is only effective in cases where the uterus is connected to the urinary tract.

Your symptoms don't sound like CAH, as cortisol deficiency generally results in excessive masculinization.

[Anniemac]

I know I asked this before and you said that you didn't want to mislead me, but Cat2, what do you think it could be?

[neko2]

I know I asked this before and you said that you didn't want to mislead me, but Cat2, what do you think it could be?
I don't recall saying anything about misleading you, but what could it be? Probably something your local hospital doesn't have a test for. Could be an unusual pattern of aromatase expression, ER-beta mutation, X/Y meiotic recombination, abnormal methylation imprinting of the X-chromosone, MIF overexpression, WNT4 duplication, minimal androgen insensitivity, mild deficiency of 17beta hydroxysteroid dehydrogenase, or maybe something else. There are many rare intersex conditions which are poorly understood.

What you've told me so far rules out a few things:

No hypospadias - Generally rules out 5aRD, CAIS, probably rules out serious 17B-dehydrogenase deficiency as well.

5'6" tall - normal female height suggests you're not lacking estrogen, although if you started taking hormones at an early age it might not matter. Could be XY/XO mosaic I suppose, but 5'6" is a bit tall for Turner's syndrome. Klinefelter's syndrome is also a possibility, but people with this condition are usually taller than 5'6", although this can be prevented if estrogen is given at an early enough age.

No salt-losing and lack of virilization rules out 21-hydroxylase deficient or 11B-hydroxylase deficient CAH.

You didn't mention any signs of potassium loss that would indicate 17a-hydroxylase deficiency, but I suppose it's possible.

No menses suggests no uterus and no ovaries, probably not 46XX.

I don't know what else to tell you.

[Sunshine1]

Dear Annie,

It was Turner's Syndrome that crossed my mind also BUT I'm not a doctor so I have no idea. The U of OHIO or the U of MICH could really help you. Anyway, I think you would be a great nurse with your positive attitude or I think you would be a Fun manager of a store like Hot Topic.

best wishes,

Aimee

[prince....ss?]

Dear Anniemac,

I have been reading your posts and I find what you have to say quite interesting. Not everyone has such energy and perkiness. But it is this energy that has drawn me to ask of you two simple questions…They both don’t have a correct answer but it is your point of view and perspective that I am interested in.

Now for the simple questions;

If you could be a tomato or a potato which would you want to be, and why not the other?

If you could be a cow or a chicken which would you want to be, and why not the other?

I would really appreciate your response to these questions… It would help me know who you are better.

Prince….ss?