More than a poll: Intersexed as an identity... not for me.

[zenditz]

Hello,

First let me start by saying I don't want to upset or offend anyone. But some recent forums have brought something to my attention. I've never identified as Intersexed, as a C.A.H. Girl, or even as disable (which I am because of my Generalized Dystonia (http://www.dystonia-foundation.org/defined/early.asp)). These are all just categories, and diagnosis that I fit into.

I do identify as female, girl, woman, (someday as mother :) ), free, liberal, socialist, witch, pagan, and strong... as well as many other things. But I've never identified as being 'Intersexed' or anything else that's not a part of who I am, just what my body is. I don't 'identify' as being blonde, but I am.

Not to offend anyone, but I've felt like that was part of my identity, just a part of my medical history, my pain, and my body (which can be kinda corrected), but not something I use as a label. Nor do I understand why others do? Whatever would Intersexed, Hermaphrodite, Trans, blah blah... I don't understand why intersexed people use these as labels for themselves. Again I'm not trying to upset anyone... just saying how I feel and wondering how others do.

And for the record NO I don't feel Trans people have the right to call themselves Intersexed. As I see it these are labels of choice, but diagnosis. Intersex is when one has ambiguous reproductive organs, Trans (whatever) is a psychological diagnosis (depending on with tran thing the person would fit into), even transsexuals.

Again, I'm not wanting to anger, or upset... and definitely not hurt anyone's feelings, I'm just expressing something I need to express... and I'm truly curious about why someone would feel that being Intersexed, regardless of which disease caused it, is a label that they would want to identify with... and how they could even say it's a way of identifying with so many different people suffering from Intersexed conditions, I don't see how it could be an Identity... like identifying as Intersexed means something about who you are... and I don't see how, or even, that it does. It's just, like I've babbled on about before, a diagnosis, a category... at least to me.

Blessings,
Katie

[mohnblume]

"...And for the record NO I don't feel Trans people have the right to call themselves Intersexed..."

Believe me, they don't want our status at all! The want the identiy of the other sex. To be intersexual is a horror for them.

[Meadow]

Katie,

Certainly if you do not want to identify as Intersex, you have that right. On one hand, CAH is an endocrine problem and not related to someone who, for example, has both a uterus as well as testicles. But on the other hand, often prenatal babies with CAH are thought to be male due to a prominent clitoris as seen on an ultrasound on the mother. So while I will not attempt to argue the point either way, others with CAH may feel that "Intersex" does describe their situation.

mohnblume,

Actually, there have been a number of trans persons who want to identify as "Intersex". They do so because they think society might be more accepting if there was a specific PHYSICAL reason for their being trans. If society felt that they had a mere "mental disorder", then certainly they should be able to be fixed with therapy. The ultimate etiology of what makes a person trans has not been elucidated as of this date, but studies are still underway. Perhaps someday. But in the mean time, many trans people long for a physical justification for being the way that they are. Identifying as "Intersex" is often a path to that end. Of course, trans and intersex are quite different. But both can face similar issues in today's society.

Respectfully, Meadow

[Priestess]

In this poll, I responded "a little bit". I never look in the mirror and say to myself "behold, there lays intersex". Yet upon reflection I must acknowledge the idential effects through which I have progressed in the wake of a life lived under unusual physical conditions.

My destiny has never allowed me the opportunity of developing a "gender identity", or even the "sexual identity" which Milton Diamond and others refer to. The rite of participating in humanity's more pleasurable customs being out of reach for too long. Someday, perhaps with the blessings of an unseen goddess, I may have a chance. Yet will I see our world as most do?

If I were an australian, I should now be able to claim the status of 3'rd sex, for gender's sake. Still I would not. On medical grounds, I could lay claim to being of both sexes, yet to me that seems just as pointless. I can pick one, and live with the path destiny has brought me to.

Yes, I will acknowledge what intersex has done for my identity. I see the world around me as having no masculine, no feminine, these things being illusions that I can't see. I feel the soul of humanity flowing like an ocean around me, all the essential human traits which we possess. Ubiquitous and universal, in every wo/man. I see love and sexualities, both of same and other, of shape and form unjudged. And what I see is a reflection of I the observer. I'm just a mirror of a mirror of myself :thinking2

Oh, enough for now. - Melissa

[Nelu]

It seems to me that "intersex" is about the most accurate word to describe me. Not only is my body intersex, but my own mind is intersex. I think of myself as a mixture, and have great comfort in a term that fits. . .finally.

For a long time, I tried to fit into society by conforming to one sex or the other. I tried to be what I thought others wanted. But until I relaxed and began to just be myself, I couldn't be happy. I have found a comfortable place in being "Intersex". Yes, it is a label, but, realistically, labels are how others will understand us. Labels are how we see the world around us.

Do I wish I had a more conforming label? Sometimes. But I have to adjust to the way God made me. And maybe, just maybe, someday I will see it as a blessing instead of a curse. Somedays I'm there. Somedays, I'm not because it's painful.

But hey, it can't be all a curse. After all, I'm here. . .finding you all.

Nelu

[mohnblume]

... But I have to adjust to the way God made me ...

How wonderful, I read somebody, who useses the same language as I do ... *smile!*

[Peter]

This poll is puzzling. As BLO is a site that openly welcomes both intersex and non-intersex people, many people who are not intersex can correctly answer the poll "not at all" when it comes to identifying as intersex. But this result would not be very interesting. If the poll was meant to elicit how many people who are physically intersex identify as intersex, then the sample should be limited to physically intersex people. At least that is how it seems to me. If the poll has some other purpose, then I would like to know about it. Thanks.

Peter

[zenditz]

On one hand, CAH is an endocrine problem and not related to someone who, for example, has both a uterus as well as testicles. But on the other hand, often prenatal babies with CAH are thought to be male due to a prominent clitoris as seen on an ultrasound on the mother. So while I will not attempt to argue the point either way, others with CAH may feel that "Intersex" does describe their situation.


Thanks Meadow,

I understand what you mean, and for me Intersexed dose describe my situation, at least medical, and physically... however it does not identify me, nor do I feel it's a part of my identity, just one of many struggles (medical and otherwise) I have to face each day. And work to heal from. I wasn't referring to one's personal situation, or physical one, but more the way they see themselves and feel about themselves... how they (not others) identify themselves.

Take care,
Katie

[zenditz]

This poll is puzzling. As BLO is a site that openly welcomes both intersex and non-intersex people, many people who are not intersex can correctly answer the poll "not at all" when it comes to identifying as intersex. But this result would not be very interesting. If the poll was meant to elicit how many people who are physically intersex identify as intersex, then the sample should be limited to physically intersex people. At least that is how it seems to me. If the poll has some other purpose, then I would like to know about it.

I am intersexed,

But it's not in anyway part of my identity. It's not how I see myself, just how I know my body was born, and that's something I can fix. I have C.A.H. and do suffer from mutated and then mutilated genitalia, clitoris and labia... and sadly my ovaries were made non-functional by Doctor's at my sadistic fathers persistence. My body was further mutilated, and so while Intersexed does describe my genitals, and part of my medical condition. It in no way defines me, how I see myself, how others see me, or how I feel. Because I know what nature oops`ed on, and Doctor's mutilated can be fixed. I'm a woman, girl, female... I'm not 'Intersexed'... my body is.

TTFN,
Katie

[Peter]

Hi Zenditz,

I am intersex,

and it is part of my identity. But what does that really mean? Many people see identity, gender, and sex as all being cut out of the same cloth. So, for them, intersex to be an identity it would have to be perhaps both a gender and a sex in a very strong sense of the term.

I don't see identity, gender, and sex as all being of the same cloth, so when I say that being intersex is part of my identity, it is like my saying that playing the saxophone is part of my identity. Actually, the issue is more complex, because I don't see gender in terms of a gender binary that mirrors the traditional sexual binary, but as a vast field of social power that both expresses and regulates society.

For me, it is fine if some intersex people identify as intersex, and other intersex people do not identity as intersex. It's a big world. I have a problem when people say that intersex cannot be an identity. I am not saying you are doing this. I am wary of the identity police.

Peter

[Nelu]

I am intersexed,

But it's not in anyway part of my identity. It's not how I see myself, just how I know my body was born, and that's something I can fix. I have C.A.H. and do suffer from mutated and then mutilated genitalia, clitoris and labia... and sadly my ovaries were made non-functional by Doctor's at my sadistic fathers persistence. My body was further mutilated, and so while Intersexed does describe my genitals, and part of my medical condition. It in no way defines me, how I see myself, how others see me, or how I feel. Because I know what nature oops`ed on, and Doctor's mutilated can be fixed. I'm a woman, girl, female... I'm not 'Intersexed'... my body is.

TTFN,
Katie
It's really cool that you know who you are on the inside. I wish we all could feel confident about ourselves. I haven't figured it all out yet. . .too many characteristics of either male or female. I guess I just have to grow as a person so that I can be brave enough to face myself and figure this gender thing out. Maybe that's why I do consider myself Intersex.
Nelu

[Priestess]

It's really cool that you know who you are on the inside. I wish we all could feel confident about ourselves. I haven't figured it all out yet. . .too many characteristics of either male or female. I guess I just have to grow as a person so that I can be brave enough to face myself and figure this gender thing out. Maybe that's why I do consider myself Intersex.
Nelu

I don't understand. While the various intersex conditions can easily have a deep and lasting effect on one's psyche, it doesn't work the other way, your acceptance and/or solution of any particular social gender mindset will not in itself change the physical state labelled intersex ... (?)

I'm starting to wonder if perhaps I'm fortunate to have no internal sense of this gender stuff which has spawned so much disagreement. It makes my life simpler, and somehow I still manage to appreciate the soul of humanity and the hope for a pleasant future. :interesti

[Nelu]

I don't understand. While the various intersex conditions can easily have a deep and lasting effect on one's psyche, it doesn't work the other way, your acceptance and/or solution of any particular social gender mindset will not in itself change the physical state labelled intersex ... (?)

I'm starting to wonder if perhaps I'm fortunate to have no internal sense of this gender stuff which has spawned so much disagreement. It makes my life simpler, and somehow I still manage to appreciate the soul of humanity and the hope for a nicer future. :interesti
I'm sorry you don't understand. I'm sure some people will.

I didn't say that I am struggling to accept my body, or in any way change it. I am saying that I am learning how to be "me", and I am learning how to live in a world where I still have to check the Male or Female box where ever I go.

It's one thing to accept myself and my body. It's another thing to be comfortable with other people's perceptions of me.

I know that I am still growing, but I still cringe when someone says, "Thank you, ma'am." because I don't feel like that fits.
However, I also am pained when a clerk at the store will say, "Can I help you, Sir." and then blush and apologize as if he/she made a mistake.

I have to be honest and say that I don't have it all figured out just yet. But I do need to get to the point that every person's addressing me (whether as "he", "she", "ma'am", or "sir") will be comfortable for me and for them rather than feeling injurious.

[Priestess]

I'm sorry you don't understand. I'm sure some people will.

I didn't say that I am struggling to accept my body, or in any way change it. I am saying that I am learning how to be "me", and I am learning how to live in a world where I still have to check the Male or Female box where ever I go.

It's one thing to accept myself and my body. It's another thing to be comfortable with other people's perceptions of me.

I know that I am still growing, but I still cringe when someone says, "Thank you, ma'am." because I don't feel like that fits.
However, I also am pained when a clerk at the store will say, "Can I help you, Sir." and then blush and apologize as if he/she made a mistake.

I have to be honest and say that I don't have it all figured out just yet. But I do need to get to the point that every person's addressing me (whether as "he", "she", "ma'am", or "sir") will be comfortable for me and for them rather than feeling injurious.

Oh, that stuff :sign16: You really shouldn't feel bad if someone corrects their pronouns on the fly. It hasn't hurt them, they're correcting the first thing they said, because they want to call you as they see you. It would effect them more if they didn't have this opportunity to resay things. So what if they blush? You're improving their lives, helping them stay away from boredom and emotional stagnation. As long as they're correcting things in the direction you'd prefer, you're all set. Both parties benefit.

As for what they call you the rest of the time, as long as you sense that they are talking to you, why does it make you uncomfortable? You didn't get to pick your social sex the first time through, or at least I didn't ... is it any worse this way, besides overcoming inertia?

(relax, I'm not trying to be adversarial :grouphug0 )

[Nelu]

Oh, that stuff :sign16: You really shouldn't feel bad if someone corrects their pronouns on the fly. It hasn't hurt them, they're correcting the first thing they said, because they want to call you as they see you. It would effect them more if they didn't have this opportunity to resay things. So what if they blush? You're improving their lives, helping them stay away from boredom and emotional stagnation. As long as they're correcting things in the direction you'd prefer, you're all set. Both parties benefit.

As for what they call you the rest of the time, as long as you sense that they are talking to you, why does it make you uncomfortable? You didn't get to pick your social sex the first time through, or at least I didn't ... is it any worse this way, besides overcoming inertia?

(relax, I'm not trying to be adversarial :grouphug0 )
Thanks for the welcome.

I guess it all boils down to-
A confused person, with a body that makes others hesitate (and, no, they do not often correct their statements in the direction I prefer), and with a brain that has to learn to accept what my body already knows. . .that I am really both!
Now, how do I muster up the courage to stop pretending and allow other's opinions to truly be their issue, and not mine?

[Priestess]

Thanks for the welcome.

I guess it all boils down to-
A confused person, with a body that makes others hesitate (and, no, they do not often correct their statements in the direction I prefer), and with a brain that has to learn to accept what my body already knows. . .that I am really both!
Now, how do I muster up the courage to stop pretending and allow other's opinions to truly be their issue, and not mine?

Mmm, I thought I understood what you were saying about your predicament, but now I realize that there's more than one interpetation of what you were saying, and it would be wrong of me to try offering advice minus the details which you've already said you feel uncomfortable talking about. I also can't say as much about how to muster up courage, because the world never let me feel like a normal member of my supposed sex. I was already an outcast without making any efforts at all towards being different. I didn't have anything to lose, I didn't need much courage. And as it's worked out, I'm socially better off, again without lots of deliberate effort. No pretenses required. I'm sorry I can't come up with any helpful hints, except maybe that my not caring made the burden easier.

Have a good weekend :roll:

[zenditz]

It's really cool that you know who you are on the inside. I wish we all could feel confident about ourselves. I haven't figured it all out yet. . .too many characteristics of either male or female. I guess I just have to grow as a person so that I can be brave enough to face myself and figure this gender thing out. Maybe that's why I do consider myself Intersex.
Nelu

I wish you all the best in your path toward growth,

Mine has been a long road without any doubt, and to be honest, therapy has helped me alot. Not without hurting me along the way. I've had more than my fair share of bad therapist, but I've also had to very good ones. The one I'm seeing now is by far the best.

She's so supportive and understanding, especially considering how much she helps me with. I have my C.A.H. issues and then there is my pain and grief over my other disease, called DYT1 Generalized Dystonia (http://www.dystonia-foundation.org/defined/early.asp), which over the last two years has left me stuck in a wheel chair for the rest of my life. Lastly, and by no means least, I have alot of issues from physical, emotional, and sexual abuse as a child (up until I was 16) from numerous members of my 'family', and then at 21 I was raped. So I have alot to deal with, and she's there for me when I need her.

I know therapy can be scary and alot of therapist can be just as painful as what your trying to grow from, but I've found a good one... and learned, over many years, to not even waste my time with bad ones.

Other than that I've just learned to look at myself for who and what I am, regardless of what diagnosis I may have. That's been a key for me. I don't see Intersexed, C.A.H., or even my Dystonia / Disabled, as being labels, just diagnosis. A term or label that others use to give them a point of reference for something, and someone, they personally cannot understand. It has no defining effect on me. The diagnosis is, at least as I feel, a more clinical than personal term.

As for gender, well I see it as a spectrum. I do definitely know it exists. I happen to be one of the girls who is very feminine, and proud of it. But I have a lot of other girl friends who are less, and more feminine than I am. And male friends who fall along all lines of the masculine spectrum. I don't see it as black & white, or even black, grey, and white... but more of a continuum, where ever person can find their own place, and be happy just being them self. I feel the same about sexual organs... I mean no girls, or boys, genitals look exactly alike, every persons is different. As a girl with C.A.H., mine is different than other girls, Intersexed or not, but it's not less my vagina. And I'm proud of it, despite my need to correct some of the mistakes Doctors made when I was growing up... especially since I know I will do what I need to feel as comfortable with my body.

I hope my feelings have helped a lil... but their just my feelings, and I'm still growing too, we all are. If I ever stopped growing I'ld prolly like totally freak.

Take care,
Katie

[prince....ss?]

Nelu,

What I normally do if I not in the mood to deal with other persons mistakes with their pronowns. Is I become the Miss or Sir that they see. I don’t correct them or make issue of their mistake…( in my case they are wrong both ways) You apparently understand why they are confused, so if you feel that you are really both then…perhaps they are correct. Don’t let it get you down. If I feel playful, I will make issue by replying to the guy making the mistake as mam or call the girl sir. The real fun one is saying “I’m sorry, what did you just call me? … Then give them a hard look and watch the sweat build on their brow.
Until you find your way to have fun with it, it will always bother you.

Good luck

Priestess,

Just a curiosity question if you would indulge me. By no means do you need to answer if you don’t want to. But you have said some things that spirited this question. If you had to choose both or neither sex/gender as the way you feel, which way would you go? Personally I feel there is a huge difference between the two.

Thanks Prince….ss?

[Nelu]

Thanks. You've been pretty encouraging. I guess I consider myself "both." So then, as "both", I guess if they say ma'am, they're right. And if they say sir, they're right. None of those has to be an offense to me.

I do have quite a sense of humor about life. . .except this one area. I think because it is such a touchy area for me, I tend not to joke about that.
It's much more a matter of me not being comfortable with myself, isn't it? Even though I consider myself to be both, for some reason I continue to try to fit into the mould of one or the other. And I just don't fit!

Thanks for helping me grow a bit today.

[mohnblume]

... I continue to try to fit into the mould of one or the other...

Abosutely right, what you say. It is at the end your own personal decisicon. I just get the impression, that you may make this decission, because there is no alternative way. But looking to Australia, there IS ONE! Of course, it needs a lot of engagement, tears, sweat, discouragement .. but it can end happily. Once more, look to Australia1

[zenditz]

Finding peace with oneself is hard,

At that's true for everyone, Intersexed, or not. I hope everyone finds where they feel most comfortable. For me thats just female, if both, or even neither feels right for you, than you go.

Personally, I've always hated the idea of the 'IT' idea, a lot of that comes from being called 'IT' by my parents until I finally escaped at 16. My mother said they did it to try and make me feel more comfortable... of course the surgeries they put me through didn't make me feel more comfortable. I've had more than 9 surgeries in my life for my C.A.H., my last one being when I was 14 years old. So 'IT', or other seems painful to me... but mostly, it's just like it totally doesn't fit me.

I'm happy for anyone who can find what is true to them, what makes them feel free of restraints and less pain... for me that just means being me, and that seems to fit it 'the norm' (whatever that is), even though aparently where I've found peace seems to upset some people here. I find great happiness in knowing myself, taking care of myself, and freeing myself of lies and restraints made by others. So I don't appoligize for feeling how I do, I don't mean to say that how I feel is the only valid way to feel.

Everyone's feelings are valid, painful, and pleasant... and hopefully everyone finds whats most pleasant for them. Reguardless of diagnosis, labels, feminism, or anything else. I'm free to be me, reguardless of how that makes people feel. For most people in my life, and most intersexed people, they feel like I do... however not all do, and not everyone here (or even most, it feels like) feel that they fit into what they come up to define as normal female, and normal male.

Every woman and man has to discover what it means to be who they are, and what it means to be female or male to them... even if they're not intersexed. It's a journey I began long ago, and am happy to say I've found were I fit, and found comfort in who I am... even if that upsets those here who feel they can't fit into one or the other. I do! Intersexed as I am I am still all female, and proud of that. And proud to someday be a mother. I'm also happy for anyone else who finds their happy place, even if it's in the 'other', or 'it', group... but thats not for me, and not for most intersexed people, and not for most non-intersexed people either. But for those who find happiness and themselves their I'm happy for them... I just wish they could be happy for those of us who fit into female, or male, without pain.

Blessed Be,
Katie

[CC]

Katie

Whatever makes you happy and content,thats what its all about right ?
Well you might be suprised to know that,I am happy for you but,I ask that you plz consider those amongst us who have yet to find that happiness.

As has been "well" documented (att Betsy) most people with intersex conditions are typical men and women and they have a gender that has never been questioned by anyone including themselves. However for about 5 to 10% of people with intersex conditions,gender identity is an issue. Some of these individuals feel that in addition to being biologically both male and female, they also identify as having a gender that is both male and female. Hence, they are intersex in both sex and gender.

I believe that people with intersex conditions who identify their gender as being intersex should be able to have this legally recognised.This should, however, be limited to adults with medically confirmed intersex conditions only, as people without intersex conditions claiming to be ‘intersex’ could
cause a number of social, medical and legal problems.

Best wishes

Canice.

[Priestess]

Priestess,

Just a curiosity question if you would indulge me. By no means do you need to answer if you don’t want to. But you have said some things that spirited this question. If you had to choose both or neither sex/gender as the way you feel, which way would you go? Personally I feel there is a huge difference between the two.

Thanks Prince….ss?

Okay, I wrote up the best answer I could think of. But it's a long reply, so I moved it to a separate thread. It's easily noticed :bis:

[zenditz]

I believe that people with intersex conditions who identify their gender as being intersex should be able to have this legally recognised.This should, however, be limited to adults with medically confirmed intersex conditions only, as people without intersex conditions claiming to be ‘intersex’ could
cause a number of social, medical and legal problems.

Oh Canice,

I respect your desire... but I don't feel it should be pushed. And your last part, which I quoted, is not only hypocritical, it's also the very thing most intersexed people don't want. I don't want an 'IT' based on my medical status... so if your saying people should just be allowed to choose their legal status, but only if it's medically and physically warranted... well where does that leave girls with CAIS, or XXY people who identify as female. To be honest your very reasoning why it should be 'limit', to only those with medical conditions is ambiguous at best... and far more painful than the system as it stands, even with it's imperfections. No system will be perfect... but a third gender, and sex, option that has to 'confirmed', examined, and proved... would help neither those who feel they fit into an IT group, nor those that don't. Sadly it would end up hurting both. Especially given you criteria.

Bye,
Katie

[CC]

Oh Katie

:umno:
we could discuss this until the cows come home and the only thing we are going to agree on,is that we disagree.So in the absence of the cows returning,I shall merely include the ISNA list of intersex conditions as a guide for you to determine who's who and what's what.

http://www.isna.org/faq/conditions

Lastly no one is being pigeonholed,it is not compulsory.

Canice.

so if your saying people should just be allowed to choose their legal status, but only if it's medically and physically warranted... well where does that leave girls with CAIS, or XXY people who identify as female.

[zenditz]

I'm against it,

Your for it... and I'm more than happy to just leave it at that. Differences are fine with me, I'm pretty different from most those who post on this board, at least in my opinions, so LOL.

Bye,
Katie