Just Stumbled In...

[Rycharde]

Hi, I'm Rycharde, 24, male identified from birth, pronounced female at birth.

I have always known I was a boy, all my life I told my friends I had both but never had any proof. I still really don't have medical proof but I know my anatomy is different than any other female I have seen and that I am not trans.

Why? Because I don't WANT to be a boy. I just am. I don't want to be a girl either. I just want to be me. I don't hate my body but without testosterone I suffer severe manic depression. I have two biological daughters and I'm expecting a son in August. All my kids were conceived on birth control. The pill I took was what made me ovulate when I was 14 and my doctors put me on it because I was not menstruating. I was raped and got pregnant shortly after I began my getting period and I stopped taking the pill after the surgeon who preformed my abortion told me that I could not, should not and never will carry children.

I started it again because my boyfriend threatened to dump me if I didn't. I had a daughter the following year. I wanted another child so I started taking the pill and got what I wanted, my two year old daughter.

My son was conceived differently.
My estrogen rocketed because of the supplements I was taking to boost my testosterone. So I tried again, and here I am with child.

This is the last one I'm having. My body is falling apart. I can't keep messing with my hormones like that so I'm taking testosterone patches starting in November 07 and I'm going to stay on a low steady dose of T.

Over my life I have had so many health problems. Looking at how low my estrogen is, and how well my body responds to testosterone things are coming into perspective. Alas I know nothing yet.

I'm really scared to ask my doctors about it because what do they know? I'm seeing a trans clinic where I was instantly approved for testosterone because I'd been living my life for 3 years solid, one stealth as a male, and had come out as being "both" to all my friends at the age of 12.

Still I don't know what I am, I have differences, I have health and mental health issues. I have no idea where to start, or what to do.

I used to think it was because my mom took fertility drugs when she had me that I am different.
But then I started to think. Mom was married at 20 years old. Mom never grew breasts. Mom never had her cycle until she was 23... Mom got VERY upset when I told her I was taking testosterone. But my mom has so many gay friends, so many trans friends, she's got drag queens in our house, making their costumes. Why does she have an issue?
Is there something she will NEVER tell me?
I always said that I wish my children to be just like me, good looking , intelligent and happy in life. She SNAPPED on me and told me never to wish myself onto my children. I think she knows she is intersexed, I think it is hereditary and I think she is very upset that I am making all the choices she didn't have the strength to make.

I now live as a homosexual male and my kids call me Daddy. I started living just as Daddy because it's just easier that way.

I hate fitting into boxes! But I guess I have to eh? I know I'm unstable without testosterone. I know I'm unhealthy and that I was healthier with it. But even just saying I'm gay puts me at risk. Let alone I'm gay and I don't mine being male in a feminine body. I nfact I don't feel the need to change anything and just want to live and be seen as myself. But no one gets that.

I hope being here, someone will.

Thanks.

[freshwater pearl]

I'm not sure if I can give any qualified advice, although I'm happy to listen and learn, but I wanted to say welcome and best wishes :)

[Peter]

Hi Rycharde,

Welcome to Bodies Like Ours. Thanks for sharing your story. You can look on the bright side of things. If you are living as a gay man, and have female on your birth certificate and have mothered three children, you can probably legally marry a man. I believe that all people should have the right to marry regardless of their sexual orientation. I agree with you that social boxes are often more harmful than helpful.

If you are looking for a possible intersex condition, I would read about different intersex conditions on the Internet. For instance, as you respond to Testosterone, you probably do not have certain intersex conditions. There are other intersex conditions where fertility is common.

You mentioned that you just want to be seen as yourself. I have pretty much given up on other people recognizing me for who I am, but I have hope that I can see myself as who I am.

Peter

[Dianne]

I have pretty much given up on other people recognizing me for who I am, but I have hope that I can see myself as who I am.

Peter

Such wisdom Peter! It is sad that most people have so little understanding of sex/gender and the natural variations of both. It grows very discouraging (after so many decades) of having a potential romantic interest disappear after "the talk" or having to keep secrets. Sometimes I think the only ones who truly understand and accept are other I.S. people.

[Peter]

Hi Dianne,

Perhaps you are correct that only intersex people can understand other intersex people. I have thought about this issue, and believe that there is a commonality among people whose bodies display sex differences and ambiguities. To be honest, sometimes I believe that transsexual people (who may also be intersex) have a much easier time understanding my situation than some intersex people. For instance, if a person has had top surgery, but not bottom surgery, they can be very aware of the type of acceptance and rejection issues that I have faced in my own life. While we focus mostly on the physical aspects of being intersex, I believe that the psychological aspects of being intersex can be somewhat overlooked. It is in the psychological area that I feel most misunderstood. For instance, the author of the book “Middlesex”, Mr. Eugenides, says that he uses method acting in his writing. Is this method acting the same as what Judith Butler refers to as “high het” drag? I have many questions, but few answers.

Peter

[Rycharde]

Hi Rycharde,

W You can look on the bright side of things. If you are living as a gay man, and have female on your birth certificate and have mothered three children, you can probably legally marry a man.

Peter

Lucky me I'm Canadian.

I don't want either M or F on my birth certificate. I don't want anything there at all!

I don't think for any reason other than medical purposes in todays society should anyone need to outwardly display their designated sex or gender in any form that needs to be shown to people who are not bound by legal confidence.

Also I believe that for those people (medical professionals, financial institutions and places of education and employment) that they should be provided the medical biological sex to treat their medical conditions should any arise and their gender separately so they will know to address that person with the correct or at least polite pronouns.
Starting with that, when people are expected to consider these options and not choose a box that says male or female, maybe they will think and consider what they really are and realize how normal it is to vary in sex and gender.

In Australia voters are marked by their chromosomes. I think if anything M or F could be replaced by that!

Thanks for the idea. I think I should start on a project. A card, like government ID that can be given first before giving legal ID to display a person's true self. Maybe some places will pick it up as personal ID card like we have BYID for sale of alcohol here in Ontario to those who do not have a passport or drivers.

[Peter]

Hi Rycharde,

You are lucky to be Canadian. I agree that it would be better not to have M or F on birth certificates. You mention an interesting fact about Australia. However, using chromosomes on ID cards etc. might also cause many problems. For instance, I believe that most CAIS women would definitely not want to be labeled as XY. I have learned that chromosomes are not really an improvement over the F and M labels. They are just another set of boxes. I like your idea of a true self ID card, where the true self would be determined by the holder of the card. We could get really creative and artistic in creating our individual cards. I am already thinking of my card.....

Peter

[Clouds]

Lucky me I'm Canadian.

In Australia voters are marked by their chromosomes. I think if anything M or F could be replaced by that!


I think you might be shooting yourself in the foot with that one. You can't choose your chromosomes, and like it or not, most people are quite ignorant; they will assume that XY=male and XX=female because that is what they are taught in school. At least with M or F you have the choice to *not* explain to every Tom, Dick and Harry who looks at your passport. That said I don't see why there shouldn't be another option for those who want neither. It's pointless trying to eradicate gender from the world though as most people quite like it.

[Rycharde]

Well what can we do to get that started? I know that the cost would be pretty easy to cover if you start off the same way student cards start out. They'd make profit selling for 5$ each.
We don't have to hire a graphics designer. I mean really just come up with some colors and ideas. Put all the pictures on a website and start off with people sending individual email requests for them.

Of course they would hold no water as legal ID. But that's not the point! The point is having something to present with/before giving other ID and having it catch the attention of authorities so that they would see how popular it is and sign into the distribution and control.

I think I'll check out the cost of making them, if anyone wants to send me a design for it then by all means.

I think an annual card would be the best idea. A new card every year, like a student card. With a picture and a big 2007 on it, new color every year or new theme. Have the option of profits going to a charity, and have the charity on the card like having the background as a huge ribbon of the color of your charity or their logo, or have a regular theme picked out that year.
On the card it would have your chosen name (if you go by a name other than your legal name) and maybe no gender marker. If someone likes they can put Ms. Diana Black or just Joe Smith. If the chosen name is different than the real name put a * next to that so that financial institutions aren't fraud by a "fake" name and know to research the name on the file.
The file would display the "facts" according to the government, only to be brought up by those who have "access" and that would be done only by professionals with legal confidentiality obligations such as doctors and financial institutions. Of course, this when it starts to hold water.

Oh so many ideas but I have a two year old telling me she's hungry and it is lunch time!

Oh about the chromosomes thing, It's not perfect. but it IS a step in the right direction. At least their government is acknowledging the need for change even if they are not satisfying it correctly. It's progress. Let's fight for more.

[Clouds]

Oh about the chromosomes thing, It's not perfect. but it IS a step in the right direction. At least their government is acknowledging the need for change even if they are not satisfying it correctly. It's progress. Let's fight for more.

I certainly don't want my chromosomes recorded on any ID card for all to see. For me it is a private matter and I don't want to have to explain it all the time. I don't see what's wrong with all the usual details, Name, address, eyecolour, and even sex, as long as people can 'update' their details. It's just proof of identity after all, having an ID card isn't about conveying a political message. If I want to do that I'll wear a t-shirt.

[Rycharde]

I certainly don't want my chromosomes recorded on any ID card for all to see. For me it is a private matter and I don't want to have to explain it all the time. I don't see what's wrong with all the usual details, Name, address, eyecolour, and even sex, as long as people can 'update' their details. It's just proof of identity after all, having an ID card isn't about conveying a political message. If I want to do that I'll wear a t-shirt.

Like I said it's an Improvement on just having M or F. It is a government acknowledging that there is more than just one gender or sex.

It's moving forward. They will see there is MORE room to improve and take more steps in the future. We may have won a dump of swamp and landfill in our battle but beyond that is fertile pasture!

Personally I think that what's in my pants stays in my pants till I'm ready to share it with someone.
I don't feel like sharing what's in my pants with the guy that sells me porn/smokes/beer etc.
Obviously when people see me they make their own judgments about what I am. Most people see me as male. A lot of people see me as being very feminine, which I am.

I get treated very well where I work with the drag queens I do makeup on. They treat me the way I want to be treated. They've seen my shirt off and seen me flat chested on the dance floor but they've also seen how great I look in a skirt and I do walk like a woman.
They've never seen my ID, I've confidently used both washrooms and if they ever saw my ID and saw that solid F there I would never show my face there again. I'd get put into "that" box. They would have conclusive proof of my assigned birth sex and I know I'd have to stop being there.

Most people forget which X goes where and what Y means after X. Just because the chromosomes say one thing could mean the sex says another could mean anything according to an uneducated person, so they would not label me female who looks like male if they saw any combo of chromosomes an I'd feel safe. I'd just say "told you I'm special, and no, you'll never know."

My solution is scraping the F off of my paper passport and birth certificates. Sure it looks suspicious but hey...worth it!

[Clouds]

Like I said it's an Improvement on just having M or F. It is a government acknowledging that there is more than just one gender or sex.

Most people forget which X goes where and what Y means after X. Just because the chromosomes say one thing could mean the sex says another could mean anything according to an uneducated person

Maybe it's different in America but here in Britain people are much more keyed in to those sort of things. Frankly I'm quite happy with my passport but if it had to have 'xy' written on it then I'd have to start explaining things, or alternatively come up with some cocky put-off line, either of which would make me less than happy. How can you say this is an improvement? Maybe for someone who's 'out and proud' it would be, but it's no help to those of us who just want a quiet life and are fine with things the way they are. I don't see what's wrong with M, F, or Other (if you so wish), as long as you get to change it if your birth assignment doesn't match your social identity.

[miriam]

Why do you want me to share that I have XY chromosomes with e.g. an immigration officer if you don't want to share what's in your pants with the guy that sells you porn/smokes/beer etc?

I'm not female because of the F in my passport or birth certificate. It's the other way around: that F is in my passport because I'm female.

I don't have a problem with people who look at me and put me in the F box. But I most certainly have a problem with people who put me in the M box because of my chromosomes.

You think that replacing F and M with XX, XY, XXY, XO etc. would make clear to people that there is more just one gender or sex. But you make the same mistake as the people who you are focusing on. Your karyotype doesn't define your sex or gender. Someone with XY chromosomes can be a man, a mtf transsexual or a woman with an intersex condition.

There is only one solution to the problem of having M and F boxes in a passport: get rid of them. Or let people change it to what they think that is appropriate. Replacing M and F with other codes doesn't change anything.

Groeten, Miriam

[Rycharde]

You think that replacing F and M with XX, XY, XXY, XO etc. would make clear to people that there is more just one gender or sex. But you make the same mistake as the people who you are focusing on. Your karyotype doesn't define your sex or gender. Someone with XY chromosomes can be a man, a mtf transsexual or a woman with an intersex condition.


Exactly! See this just works so well.
I can tell everyone in the world I have male chromosomes (don't know about that yet) but if I have a vagina they still see girl.

You have to think about what society thinks and not what you think because you happen to be educated. Society is not. They think about two things, and those are genitals.
My partner knows I am more male than anything, had a crush on me as a male, knows I have a small penis and everything. I smell male. I look male, I sound male. But he thinks I'm female. If I had male chromosomes which again we don't know yet then what would that change? Nothing! He's had contact with female parts on my person and that is all he thinks about when judging if I am male or female and let me say I'm with an in between deciding on whether to transition or not mtf.

So my point is that your average person sees M or F and decides everything about you based on that one sexual organ. It's a black and white thats what it is, nothing more nothing less you have a vagina you're female you have a penis you're male.

Meanwhile look at what you have mentioned. A female with male chromosomes. Look I see you and I see a chick. No doubt in my mind you look like a very lovely lady.
By knowing you have male chromosomes that tells me nothing about what is in your pants and I can't tell if you are male or female by your chromosomes alone so I go with what my eyes see. A nice lady.

If I saw an M on your ID I'd think ok, MTF or intersex.
Most likely mtf because people are ignorant these days and know nothing about intersex conditions. Then that would lead my more rude mind to assume you're a dude.
Seeing a male chromosomes on you won't make me think dude. It will make me think hey I'm looking at a lady, she must have her x's and y's in a bunch but thats definitely a lady I'm looking at right now.

So there is my simple explanation, from a simple, greatly uneducated pov. And I must remind you that just because you are educated and know what is what, absolutely no one else who has not had to deal with having an intersex condition or has a medical background knows very much about your chromosomes, truthfully, we're all pretty dumb.

The most likely situation if someone saw your chromosomes on your ID as male is to think hmm I thought that meant male, I must be wrong, because I'm looking at a lady.
If you had an M there like I being more male would have an F there people would get confused because they know what M and F mean for sure.

[Clouds]

I think you are posting a series of arguments that have not been properly thought through and have no basis in reality.

Ultimately, if you can only see your own situation or point of view, you are not going to be able to come up with a system that works for everybody, and confusing the issue even more is not going to help anyone. Both myself and Miriam have pointed out how the system could be made to work in everyone's favour and yet you are not even considering our points of view.

I don't think that you're going to be having 'xy' put down on your passport or your medical records given that you've had three kids... want to swap??

Just how many people are you prepared to walk over to save your ego?:pissed-2:

If you've been refused an 'M' on your ID then I suggest you try to get that changed rather than coming up with some cock-eyed solution that messes things up further for nearly everyone else. And besides the cost of giving everyone a karyotype before they can have their ID renewed would be prohibitive.

[Rycharde]

I think you are posting a series of arguments that have not been properly thought through and have no basis in reality.

Ultimately, if you can only see your own situation or point of view, you are not going to be able to come up with a system that works for everybody, and confusing the issue even more is not going to help anyone. Both myself and Miriam have pointed out how the system could be made to work in everyone's favour and yet you are not even considering our points of view.

I don't think that you're going to be having 'xy' put down on your passport or your medical records given that you've had three kids... want to swap??

Just how many people are you prepared to walk over to save your ego?:pissed-2:

If you've been refused an 'M' on your ID then I suggest you try to get that changed rather than coming up with some cock-eyed solution that messes things up further for nearly everyone else. And besides the cost of giving everyone a karyotype before they can have their ID renewed would be prohibitive.

No one is going to be able to come up with a system that works for everybody.

Not yet, things go through stages. This is a stage, development, progress in the right direction, not a final system.

Secondly take your own words for that. I'm not only thinking from my pov. I posted what I'd think about other people being an average person looking at their ID.
Being selfish and stating in my favor. Not having anything at all down would be the only thing that works for me. Thus I've got my ID scratched out.

Given that I've had three kids I don't care what goes down on my passport as long as it's not a definite M or F. I've explained this already. Quite thoroughly.

I'm sorry if you feel walked over. My ego needs no saving. Save your own.

I have not been refused an M on my ID. I am not trying to get M on my ID. I do not want M on my ID.
I am NOT biologically male, I have had three children. I will never be biologically male, I think putting an M is deceptive and wrong. Putting an F is deceptive and wrong also because I don't have female organs alone. I don't live as a female. But medically my chromesomes would be CORRECT.

So although this may make you slightly upset, from a logical and medical standpoint it would be more efficient to have an HONEST representation of one's biological nature on health ID and passports, DL and everything because most people assume when they see an M they're going to find a penis down there and of course men have different medical issues. So I personally do not want to mislead medical professionals who are dealing with my life in the balance just to have something I might prefer more on my ID card.

Lets talk health insurance. How does a M get paps and hysterectomies paid for?
How does a F get a prostate exam covered.

Logic here.

Lets talk getting arrested.
Who strip searches you and if you're being a jerk who decides who searches you? The cops do. And they're going to decide that based on your ID. Now if they're seeing chomesomes not M or F they have to ask a question of "who would you prefer"

Lets talk Jail.
Well I don't think many women would feel comfortable with me being in a cell with them. I'm not butch in any way at all but I'm obviously male. How would I get the medical care I need in either mens or womens facilities?
You figure that out, I have no solution for that.

Lets talk emergency health care. Lets say I had changed my ID to M which you can do in Ontario if you take testosterone and have surgery with the correct letters.
So they'd just see the M, dope me full of who knows what and kill my unborn child.
Yea real smart.

Stop being on this high horse of being M or F because you want to be seen as that by people and start thinking about the real value of having a Solid Fact on your ID and not something that you prefer.

[Sara Zeal]

the real value of having a Solid Fact on your ID and not something that you prefer

Huh, well that's only a solid fact if it's complete, and then why do you want everyone to know?

Say someone is mosaic 5% XX 90% XXY 5% XY, has male genitals, identifies as male, and doesn't want to be seen as anything but male (understandably), then what is wrong there?

Oh and people who already assume M means male genitals *will* assume XY means the same. Unless you have XO, XXY or another variation, they'll ask questions, and not necessarily in a nice way.

I really don't see how could this save you in emergency/prison or police situations.

Maybe women with CAIS wouldn't want to be seen as XY, and men with de la chapelle syndrome wouldn't want to be seen as XX too. It's personal.

If someone wants to tell a friend, or their doctor or anything, they can, but you can't force *everyone* to do so, just because you think it benefits *you*.

I look female, sound female, smell female if you will, but have male genitals - until surgery they won't let me change it to F...but past that they will, if it was chromosomes I'd be stuck with XY, and the same problems, all my life.

If you want to be 'precise' about someone you'd have to include chromosomes, gonads and how many there are or were (if removed), hormone levels average, fertility and I'd go as far as saying BSTc size (when measurable alive) should be pointed out too - and I really wonder what people checking my passport would think of all this junk that's really personal...a M or F is more anonymous, if you need to bring precision for the sake of care, you can do so, but you should not be forced to do so.

[Clouds]

All I am saying is, why change one system that doesn't work in exchange for a system that makes things worse for a lot of people? isn't that a step backward?

As far as having a blank ID, that's fine for you if that's what you want. I don't see anything wrong with that. I do however think you are missing the point that sex and gender are as much social constructs as medical fact.

With regards to medical insurance, this unfortunately is what happens when insurance is in the hands of private money-makers rather than the government. Over here we have the National Health Service and everyone gets their medical treatment for free no matter what is on their ID, albeit sometimes slowly. Perhaps you would like to take this issue up with the government of your country.

It's got nothing to do with being wanting to be seen as anything. I'm happy with the way things are, and your so called 'improvements' would cause me lots of trouble. I don't see what's the problem with bringing in another category of 'blank' or 'other' in addition. But you don't seem happy with that. You've got to try and make it worse for others in order to have your own way, for some reason.

And what exactly is so wrong about me wanting to keep my ID exactly the way it is?

[Rycharde]

Huh, well that's only a solid fact if it's complete, and then why do you want everyone to know?

Say someone is mosaic 5% XX 90% XXY 5% XY, has male genitals, identifies as male, and doesn't want to be seen as anything but male (understandably), then what is wrong there?

Oh and people who already assume M means male genitals *will* assume XY means the same. Unless you have XO, XXY or another variation, they'll ask questions, and not necessarily in a nice way.

I really don't see how could this save you in emergency/prison or police situations.

Maybe women with CAIS wouldn't want to be seen as XY, and men with de la chapelle syndrome wouldn't want to be seen as XX too. It's personal.

If someone wants to tell a friend, or their doctor or anything, they can, but you can't force *everyone* to do so, just because you think it benefits *you*.

I look female, sound female, smell female if you will, but have male genitals - until surgery they won't let me change it to F...but past that they will, if it was chromosomes I'd be stuck with XY, and the same problems, all my life.

If you want to be 'precise' about someone you'd have to include chromosomes, gonads and how many there are or were (if removed), hormone levels average, fertility and I'd go as far as saying BSTc size (when measurable alive) should be pointed out too - and I really wonder what people checking my passport would think of all this junk that's really personal...a M or F is more anonymous, if you need to bring precision for the sake of care, you can do so, but you should not be forced to do so.

Ok all good points there.
However I think that the best point is that you are right we'd have to put the total percentages, then the gonads and if they were removed and etc etc etc. Never thought into that much detail.

So again, you feel that your chromosomes are personal. I feel that my junk is private.
Obviously you don't want anyone who isn't a medical professional knowing what kind of junk you have in your pants either so then why is M or F on the ID card at all?

Maybe it should be mandatory to have it on file and readily accessible for those who have concerns in the medical field.

I don't see how you aren't concerned with insurance and health care. If I have a hysterectomy this year and change my F to an M I could have chest surgery because I am "male" and under the age of 30. In Ontario if you have fatty breast tissue, and are male under 25 you can have a chest reduction paid for by ohip.

I think that boxing it in to M and F is premature and unreasonable at any rate.

So if you can't fit everyone into A or B when there are so many in betweens then maybe we should not have anything on our IDs at all other than our names, birthdays and ID codes that can be accessed by government officials and medical professionals to give a detailed list like you said, of every cell, gene and drop of blood in a persons body so they can get treatment.

I also think insurance policies are retarded to separate things into M and F. A female can get a pap covered, a male can not. A female can get a hysterectomy covered, a male can not. A male can have a prostate exam, a female can not.
But what if that female happens to have a prostate? Then she has to pay for her exams?
What about people who are going to stay in between forever and do not identify as either?
There are a whole tonne of combinations out there.

I'm not saying I am right. I am saying that just using M or F is wrong and really inaccurate.

You have proven in this discussion that using your chromosomes is also as shallow and wrong.

So I'd say what the solution has to be is making it entirely private and completely detailed. Sound right?

[Clouds]

So I'd say what the solution has to be is making it entirely private and completely detailed. Sound right?

In principle, yes. However there would have to be some form of tiered security to control who can access what. Here in the UK the government is slowly uploading everyone's medical records onto a new computer system called the 'spine'. This will offer advances such as a centralised database of every patient's allergies, adverse drug reations, diagnoses etc.

The issue is that over a million people in the UK work for the healthcare system, and every single one of them will have access to the spine database. This means that over 1 in 50 people will have access to any patient's records which can hardly be called private!

I think on the whole it's a good idea though as it means that for example, penicillin (hopefully) won't be given to someone who is allergic. I do however think that only doctors and nurses directly connected with anybody's treatment should have access to anything beyond date of birth, current medication, allergies, adverse drug reactions and next of kin.

[miriam]

According to George W. Bush it is really easy: if you have XY-chromosomes you are a man. And if you have XX-chromosomes you are a woman.

Rycharde, you didn't answer my question. Why do you want me to share that I have XY chromosomes with e.g. an immigration officer if you don't want to share what's in your pants with the guy that sells you porn/smokes/beer etc?

You assume that people will ask you what to do if the see a girl and read in ones ID that this girl has XY-chromosomes. Why do you think that people will ask anything? Please read this:

http://flashwarner.com/2006/08/100_percent_pure_woman_champ_2006.html

I think that you may have serious gender problems. Not just a gender identity disorder but an identity disorder as well. Given the fact that you have 3 children, the chance that you might have XY-chromosomes is about 0. You don't know a shit about transsexuality or intersexuality. As you already said yourself: you just stumbled in. Please go back were you came from and read a lot about TS and IS before you come back.

You don't listen to arguments and you don't want to answer to questions. In other words...you behave like a troll.


Groeten, Miriam

[Sara Zeal]

Sadly, if it becomes known, like Michelle Dumaresq there in that article, they immediately cry to outrage over an advantage.

I'm no doubt PAIS grade 1, I have a very small female-like body, never could build any muscles, despite normal levels of testosterone, could not grow tall (I'm 5'6") or even have a portion of a 'Man's strength' but all this wouldn't matter to the name callers. I'd be XY and so 'a man' to them.

On another level, there are those who don't compete in sports, but in beauty/talent that receive scorn in the same way, like Ha-Ri-Su, a 32 years old MtF born in Thailand who lives in Japan who does modeling/acting/singing, what stands out isn't her ability but that 'she used to be a man' (frankly, given how she looks, it's very doubtful - she might have been IS too, or simply very lucky).

[Rycharde]

I just wanted to understand thats all. It's not my system it's a voting system that a lot of people in Australia fought for.

So before fighting for something, finding out what we're fighting for matters most over anything.

Obviously no matter what my chromosomes are when someone looks at my ID they're going to ask questions right?

Maybe the best solution is a choice.
Being able to choose whether or not to display your sex on your ID.

I want my details to come up at the hospital when I check in. I want them to know that I'm female in some aspects but that I respectively go by dominantly male pronouns (unless you're chanting you go girl, because this lady is a diva!)
I want them to know that while I am nursing I bind heavily, that I should be given a pregnancy test before administering narcautics or certain treatments. That a pap may be necessary. But I also want them to know that I am a queer male sexually and that I may have colon problems because of a family history and my own sexual preferences. I want all this on my file because I want to be handled with the best care that can be afforded to me. They need to know I'm on hormone therapy when I'm on my T. They need to know that I'm breastfeeding my baby, like when I was in a coma in 05 and I had three nurses doing shift work pumping my breasts when I was unconscious so I could continue to nurse my daughter when I woke up.( after 2 weeks!)
My mother made sure all that happened for me and I want all this on file, where people who need to see it, can see it. Just like if I was allergic to latex or something I want that right there on my file. These are the people who need to know everything about me, not the guy I buy my porn, smokes and beer from, or the guy that checks me onto a flight at the airport.

So chromosomes aren't an option for many people it seems. M and F are not options for me.
I don't want someone thinking I'm male, because I'm not! I don't have a prostate, I don't have testicles. I don't even want a phalloplasty. But I ain't no lady either so I don't want to confuse people with an F.
I need my paps covered! But I also need to have the two inch monster in my pants given just a little credit, and the fact that I grew up as, look act and sound male (although I'm quite the flamer), yeah a little influence there!

So it's blank for me. I don't think anyone should have a misleading gender marker. If you're not 100% male don't have an M, so on!

[Rycharde]

According to George W. Bush it is really easy: if you have XY-chromosomes you are a man. And if you have XX-chromosomes you are a woman.

Rycharde, you didn't answer my question. Why do you want me to share that I have XY chromosomes with e.g. an immigration officer if you don't want to share what's in your pants with the guy that sells you porn/smokes/beer etc?

You assume that people will ask you what to do if the see a girl and read in ones ID that this girl has XY-chromosomes. Why do you think that people will ask anything? Please read this:

http://flashwarner.com/2006/08/100_percent_pure_woman_champ_2006.html

I think that you may have serious gender problems. Not just a gender identity disorder but an identity disorder as well. Given the fact that you have 3 children, the chance that you might have XY-chromosomes is about 0. You don't know a shit about transsexuality or intersexuality. As you already said yourself: you just stumbled in. Please go back were you came from and read a lot about TS and IS before you come back.

You don't listen to arguments and you don't want to answer to questions. In other words...you behave like a troll.


Groeten, Miriam

And I said I saw a nice lady. Wow obviously you ARE right. There are a tonne of common misconceptions in this world.

I'm digging for answers, just like you were at one point in your life and just because I've kicked up a little dust and gotten your dress soiled a little gives you no right to sling hateful or cruel words at anyone.

I'm going to state that I have been living as a male for 12 years once again. That I have been in therapy for most of my life and that I have been a major pillar in the development of several gender varient groups in my area.

I don't have any problems with who I am and just because I'm not content fitting into a pair of heels or a plaid shirt gives you no right to go against who I am an make such blind and uneducated asumptions about another human being.

You might think to be miss high and mighty because you have this and that and have solidly fit yourself into a normal gender role in society dispite your challenges but there are some of us who accept that we don't have to.

I wear girl clothes, I have facial hair and I am a proud pregnant man. Does this bother you?
Does it bother you that I love my sexual organs the way they are and yet I choose to date homosexual men?
Am I an abomination to even you?

Then I can say I've lost hope in your world and you are a sad representation of your self.
To think maybe someone else who is born different could understand and be met with someone so rude.
Yes, you definitely are a woman, but theres another word I could use for it.


I'd like to apologize to absolutely everyone else on here, and I'd like to say that in the least this has been a learning experience for me as a human being.

I have learned that society has not progressed as far as I had hoped. I have learned that even amongst people who are variant in gender because of medical conditions are judgmental and cruel to anyone who does not meet standards and that to find myself I'm just going to have to look somewhere else where people won't tear me apart for asking questions, voicing opinions different then theirs and having a mind of my own.

I came here because I hoped to be understood. I hoped to find someone else who is not trans sexual, who has grown in some way knowing they are both sexes and has found the strength to accept themselves for who they are because that is what my life is about. Accepting and embracing my whole self.

If you can't even accept me being here then I'll leave. I know when I'm not welcomed.

[Peter]

I am interested in Rycharde's comments about Australia. Is it true that Australian voters approved an ID system that uses a person's karyotype as a basis for personal identification? I am opposed to using a person's karyotype as a form of public identification. It sounds to me like a deeply flawed scheme that ultimately strengthens the hand of those people who believe that "XY" equals male, and "XX" equals female. Even if it was a voluntary system, it could easily evolve into an involuntary system through social pressures for personal conformity. I am wondering who proposed and advocated for the Australian system. I would appreciate any light that can be shed on this topic.

I think that Rycharde has a right to post opinions that might be unpopular. I don't believe that Rycharde believes in curtailing personal freedom, but is merely thinking out loud about issues of personal identity. I wish that more people would think out loud about issues of sex, gender, and personal identity.

Peter

[Dana Gold]

I am wondering who proposed and advocated for the Australian system. I would appreciate any light that can be shed on this topic.

Many countries ( United Kingdom, and some Western European nations) already have a "national ID card" in effect and others ( USA etc)are considering one ...... and with modern "scientific advances" are proposing biometric identifiers as part of the card technology.....DNA being ever popular has been part of the discussion...how far "they" will go with biometric identifiers is anybody's guess....anyway; a bit (below) on the Australian version (with history/background and current proposals:

Identifiers can be innate, unique and unchanging physical characteristics, such as fingerprints and DNA. They may be physical but subject to change, through for example aging or through gender reassignment surgery.

Identifiers can be assigned by the state or by nongovernment organisations, for example an identity number that can be embodied in an identity card and recorded in a register for statistical enumeration (so many dead souls in Bialystock or Boggabri) or other purposes, the scarlet letter worn by Hester Prynne or the 'F' for 'Felon' burnt into the skin of some pre-industrial criminals. ….snip/////
Identity can be chose - established - by the individual, through for example that person's career path, choice of associates, self-description in particular contexts ('Accountant', 'Methodist', 'Gay').

Identity may be determined through vetting and identity referencing processes. It can also be determined through tools such as biometrics, which seek to re-identify an innate characteristic and match that information with a record.

http://www.caslon.com.au/australiacardprofile1.htm

Individuals would be required to 'produce' the card (including provide a government agency or business with their number) for a range of reasons, including -
• opening accounts and subsequently engaging in transactions with financial institutions, including receiving/sending foreign remittances
• engaging in investment transactions and financial futures trading
• receipt of income, including money from property rental, primary production (agriculture, fisheries, forestry) and some trusts
• real estate transactions
• safe deposit box transactions
• employment
• taxation and prescribed payments
• seeking and receipt of health insurance benefits
• government unemployment, disability, aged pension and other social security benefits
• public hospital services
http://www.caslon.com.au/australiacardprofile3.htm

Another link: http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,20867,21576392-2702,00.html

PS: I'm of the opinion that our present (executive/judicial branches) gov't (US) would like to have "sex identifiers" chip-imbedded in the "Real ID cards" to "identify" the the people they deem "undesirable"....for "national security" purposes.
According to George W. Bush it is really easy: if you have XY-chromosomes you are a man. And if you have XX-chromosomes you are a woman.
A past discussion here in BLO Land touched upon this subject; It really would be "federal law" that a person with XY chromosomes would be a man on the Real ID card, and vice versa.....any variations?...probably a Y chromosome would mean man to them.....this is "their" current mind-set.

Dana

[apple]

National ID is more than a mere considered possibility.

Federally required REAL ID is just National ID by another name. The compliance deadline for REAL ID has merely been pushed back slightly.

It is still the law.


"Because states may have difficulty complying before the May 11, 2008, deadline, DHS will grant an extension of the compliance deadline until December 31, 2009. States that have received extensions will, over the course of the waiver period, submit proposed timetables for compliance." - Department of Homeland Security
http://www.dhs.gov/xnews/releases/pr_1172765989904.shtm


Here is video showing a test, by The State Of Texas Department Of Safety, of the version of REAL ID which they propose. It functions as debit card, and the video shows a woman buying gas with it at the pump.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QeS2j7yK66k

I believe it wont be long, before cash is no longer an option, and in fact the Fed has also said the same.


Your sex/gender listed in the National Database, is already linked to your Social Security record, which has long contained your name and sex at birth in addition to your current name and sex.

All names you have ever used, your name and sex at birth and your current name and sex, remain forever in your Social Security record and cannot be expunged, and getting a new SSA record is nearly impossible, being both costly and time consuming, even when you can meet the extremely stringent requirements for doing so.

Your Social Security Number - Vulnerable But Inflexible
http://www.consumeraffairs.com/news04/2005/id_ssn.html

[Rycharde]

Thanks Peter, and thanks to the others who provided factual information on government ID considerations.

I am really interested in learning about these things because I do hope that one day we'll find a solution that everyone can agree on.

Arguments bring us to compromises and compromises lead to a result that can satisfy the needs of everyone to some point.

What I read last year was an article on intersex rights in Australia, it was not the ID that had the X's and Y's it was the voting registration. Some intersex voters decided that they would refuse to identify as male or female and this caused a recount resulting in the solution being that they could use their chromosomes to identify themselves on the voting ballot.

Don't quote me on that, I read the article a year ago and I've been looking for it unfruitfully for a couple days now but I promise to post it if I do come across it. I'm going to ask on another support group I'm on to see if anyone remembers reading it because I've searched the archives and theres some discussion about it on my other group.

On a similar note, I registered at a new health clinic today. Of course theres a freaking crises here for doctors and I can't seem to find one but my midwife got my foot in the door.
Big rainbow triangles everywhere, so impressed!
My midwife called me and told me I just had to see the doctor at this clinic because they are so positive and have other trans/queer/intersex patients.

So when I filled out my forms theres the all mighty gender marker which because they started the forms for me is already ticked as an F. So I ticked off the M too. Left the F.
Got up and brought the forms to the desk. Offered to explain why they were both ticked and she said no, I understand your condition it's alright, we just didn't know which you prefer and since you are here for midwifery services we did have to put female down for insurance purposes.
Then I told her how my last counselor missed our first apointment because she was looking for a female in the waiting room and I was the only person there.
She walked up to a lady and asked her if she was Ms... and I was like oh no. Mr. ..., right here!

So I do need to have both checked off. And I just feel that is more acurate and so does my clinic! I haven't even met my new doctor yet and already I'm so loving this clinic!

[Rycharde]

All right now that I don't have a two year old on me...

When it comes to unpopular opinions and thinking out loud.

We all know the popular opinions but how often do we question our systems? How often do we just settle for what we have and let it be.
Just because there may not be something wrong, like there is nothing wrong with my pentium II there could be room for upgrade and improvement.
Sometimes that comes in the form of something like the short lived sempron phase amd went through with the inevidable return to athlon processors.
But again you never know if you don't challenge. You never know if you don't try.
I have learned a lot. I don't want to argue to be right and this is not about my ego.
It got out of hand when some persons resorted to immature low blows to win a fight but when that happens it should be cut off rather than beating a dead horse.

Learning from arguments is one of the most valuable lessons I have learned in my life. In my grade 11 social studies class the teacher randomly separated us into two even groups.
He gave us a topic. One of the topics was abortion.
The people on team A despite what they believed in had to defend abortion. The people on team B had to dispute it.
We had to find five key points to why there should/should not be legal abortions. We were 16 and out of that room came some of the most convincing arguments. We also discussed the legalization of marijuana, prostitution, slavery even the list goes on. Once a week we were given a new assignment.
The best was when he first split us up he asked who believes in X and everyone who raised their hand was put on the team opposing it. Wow. Fun!

The point was not who won, but what both sides could learn from the debate.
It is never about who is right, but what is true. It is true that there are bad things when it comes to topic A, but it is also true that topic A benefits society in this way. Then looking at the facts you decide what is right. Not who is right just because they defend one solid opinion.

Someone who will tell you straight up they can only see one side is always wrong.

I will argue the unpopular just to get all the information and learn more and I think thats a skill not to be taken for granted.

[Kailana]

Wow, ok, i really had a lot to read in this thread.

I really want to repeat what i said in the header above. With so many people here it is common for someone to find offense now and then when touchy subjects come up. I am sure i have posted a few unfavorable posts and responses in the past.

I really find your history amazing and appreciate how you chose to share it with us.

As for your personnal views on how you see yourself, i am proud to say i am intersexed, true hermaphrodite, transsexual, Male phenotype transitioning Female. I tend to think that although i am transitioning female, i am really a hermaphrodite. As to what id like on my birthcertificate and drivers license, i would prefer an H or maybe an I.

That is just my preference, i believe each of us has the right to have what we believe ourselves to be. Perhaps i think of having an i.d. that reflects how i feel and think of myself is what is best for me.

I am open publicly as an intersexed transsexual. I would suppose there is some conflict there when it comes to things like passing as a woman, Its kinda years off, or if ever, as a thought in my opinion. I hope i'll look a lot better in a few years then i do now, as so far, very little has changed within the last 14 months of HRT.

As to your questions and thoughts, please keep them comming. I find it very reassuring to know there is another who doesnt fit stereotypes of what being IS means. i believe there is way too much variation in gender to make clear to everyone in society what someone is, all i will say is there is alot more then Male or Female. And i would really love all Governments, religous organizations and the general public to acknowledge that we exist. For the future i have a great deal of hope, that the world will accept those of us who don't fit the specific genders of Male or Female.

A question is only a question if someone thinks about what is being asked. So ask away, so others like me can think about these things too.

oh, and i really did enjoy thinking about your post.

[Rycharde]

Thank you Kailana!
What an awesome name I must say! It's my old male name rearranged! I used to first present myself as a boy when I was younger in online video games with the handle Laik, and my friend in Taiwan would be Kail. We used the names in real life too and since its just such an odd name I thought it worth the mention.

It was very nice to wake up to your post.
I too am glad to see someone who you can't jam into a box.

Have you ever looked into Muslim views on Hermaphrodites? You may feel very comfortable to see that many Muslims who are born seemingly male have found a holy place in the society as women and they go out without HRT or anything, in public and are actually accepted in some places. Which I totally thought was awesome.

A lot of religions worship and respect the intersex individual, in many ways. I think it is the widespread misunderstanding and stigma that has thrown us off this century but that hope is very very near for acceptance.

Not one single person I know in my new home town misunderstands or is unaccepting of my condition and I am very open about being "Daddy" even though I do not pass for my life right now because I can't bind my breasts since I do intend to breastfeed my new baby come August. So everyone sees this "girl" who is being called "Daddy" by his daughter in public and if they don't like it well TS!

Speaking of my pregnancy there are a lot of interesting points about it. My hips don't, will not and can not separate, and neither will my abdominal walls as my midwife has pointed out. Instead of a pregnancy belly I have a thick stalky trunk of a body, still very muscular on the front because I do have the abs to brag about and my whole body, save for the newly developed breasts is still very male.
I can really now say "Hey Look, A pregnant man!" and thats now how I really look!
At 25 weeks I went from a size 28 waist to a 34 and gained 30 lbs!

[fraulein_Maria]

no ones asked (and i have been away for awhile) so i'll ask...

how you describe yourself sounds like you are XX with some form of CAH (there are 5 major types) and are in the middle on the prader scale (yes, some CAH's have bigger equipment than you ;)

have you ever been tested?

[Rycharde]

No, but thanks, I don't know what to get tested for and I'm here for an education.
I am so short attention span and I don't even know where to start looking.

With my pregnancy my midwife has concerns because my hips are not separating and my abdominal wall is still one large mass. My mother and aunt have similar physical conditions to me and my mother is now having a very bad reaction to estrogen prescribed to her as post hysterectomy treatment. I swear she's never had breasts until this year so it's kinda funny her actually wearing a bra now.
I don't know too much about my family's conditions but I know my mom is like me and so is my aunt. My other aunt is a whole 6 inches shorter than us, has huge breasts and looks like a fertility goddess. She's their 100% blood sister! Don't know about my moms mom, but she is very tall also and has a very deep voice, very little feminine features but she is 75, and conservative, we don't talk about eyeglass prescriptions in my family let alone hormone levels and intersex conditions.

Where do I start looking, what do I look for how do I know when I'm looking at the right thing! And then when I figure out what I MIGHT have I'll go check it out with a doctor, sound good?

Thanks again