View Full Version : Normals vs 'Normalization'
I've taken a long time to think about the idea of 'normal' since reading the discussion on the thread 'Everyday Gender'; ... there were certainly a number of extremely valid issues, ideas, and life situations brought up during the course of that thread.
BUT.... what I do think is the MOST Important Question to ask, is;
1) Is it NORMAL / MORAL / ETHICAL to Sexually Mutilate / Alter the genitals of an Infant or Young Child, even if this results in the child being Sterilized?
2) If So, then WHEN is this type of action justified?
RW:... I particularly want to hear YOUR RESPONSE, given your extensive writings on the idea of 'Normal'.
Wyn
No it isn't normal moral or ethical...
But I have to say that all I'm telling you is my opinion about something of which I know very very little. There are clearly many many people who use this forum who have a very great deal more right to be listened to on this matter than I have. And I wouldn't ever have offered any comment on this had you not asked directly.
Unless I misunderstand I think you are asking me about something very different from what I wrote about.
I have been wondering whether to re-post my previous comments in their own thread. Do you feel that would be appropriate? As I said last time, all I wanted to do was to throw some ideas forward to see what people thought. Clearly last time I chose the wrong thread to do this on.
Rosealee
11-25-07, 12:05 AM
Well I personally do not know much on this subject. From what I have seen on Law and Order: SVU is where my opinion is thriving from. So excuse my lack of knowledge on the subject. But for those of you that haven't seen this Episode, let me explain this to you. There were these two kids, twins mind you, one 'girl', one boy. But something happened resulting in a murder and it was the boy's DNA. But the girl kept on insisting that she did it. Well eventually come to find out, due to a freak accident of circumcision, one of the boys were turned into a 'girl' and was raised as a girl. Well the 'girl' never felt right, 'she' always felt like a weirdo, so needless to say when she found out... it made sense to her.
But do I think it's normal, ethical or morally right? I am not sure, in some cases it MIGHT be, but really should the parents decide? Shouldn't the child decide when it's older, since it will be the one living that life? Do I make any sense whatsoever? But in the end. I don't believe there is a normal. Everyone is different, so what in reality in normal?
Kailana
11-25-07, 07:39 AM
I was rather happy to see that SVU episode air.
Thought the storyline was verydark. I thought it was nice to see how a person say themselves who knew that something wasnt right, just didnt knowhow. From my perspective, I share alot of how the kid felt, share that same thought concept of knowing your not supppose to fit what everyone is telling you are.
I also want to say, that was just a tv show. This is real life, and in our real world, Many of us are treated this way. Our thoughts are not taken into account on how we feel about ourselves. Its the doctors and our parents who are making those choices for us. We are the victims of there handywork and many of us, dont agree with there decisions. The so called practice of keeping everything secret, still happens. Yes we are seeing more and more intersexed people come out and say, "hay knock it off, we are peopel too, treat as such": That is my firm belief when it comes to genital reconstruction on innocent newborns. The wrong people are deciding what a person is going to be. There should be a complete ban on Infant/child/teen forced gender assignments. Only the person involved has the right to be forced to be a specific gender, or to change that gender, and it should be the medical professions that insure that know human rights are ever violated, no body is ever harmed because of what a doctor, or a parent thinks is correct for a child. Only the child/person has that right over there own body. And before anyone goes and states something stupid about how being a boy or a girl will be treated by there peers with a different body, they should think of this one thought, many of us have been treated differently becuase of how we are built. I have tons of crappy experiences as a kid, in lockerrooms/shower bays.
Or before anyone says well lets wait tell there adults before allowing surgerys, know this, most of us knew we were different when we were kids. I was 10 by the way, and knew i should of been a girl. Ive read others state they were 4, and some 6, some older. It doesnt really matter when. What does matter is that, our beleifs trump what doctors or society believes, and its the persons individual belief that matters most when it comes to being assigned a gender through surgery.
This is a topic on which I have VERY strong feelings!
The whole basis for "assigning gender" is seriously flawed. It is not the length of the phallus nor the state of the gonads that determine gender of a human being - it is the mind (or spirit if you wish) and that hasn't even been considered until recently. We have been living and operating under the shaky theory that a child will grow up happy and healthy "in the gender of rearing" and there is mounting evidence (cases coming out of the woodwork) that in many cases that is simply untrue! One of the most widely known cases is that of David Reimer who ended up taking his own life.
Unfortunately doctors are very superficial thinkers and medicine is almost totally based on theories rather than hard facts. Much of what is done in medicine is based on speculation and previous experience and we, the mis-assigned, have been far too quiet. The medical profession assumes, since we have not been beating down their doors or dragging them into court, that the vast majority of assignments are successful. Since many who are assigned a gender in infancy don't even know what was done to them, there is no way to know how many who consider themselves Gay or Transsexual would have been more appropriately assigned to the opposite gender in infancy.
Since gender is between the ears and is immutable, it is totally unconscionable to be mucking about with a baby's genitals until doctors and family KNOW what the child's gender expression will be. Until we have a few high-profile legal cases though I am afraid the mutilation will continue
Unfortunately the administrators within the medical profession are no fools and it may be nearly impossible to have successful malpractice suits considering how common it is for “hospital fires” to destroy old medical records! (Fire which, strangely enough, are never reported in the newspapers......)
My own medical records from the first 5 months of my life were among those reportedly destroyed in a fire in the records department of the hospital where I was born (another of those strange fires that was never mentioned in the local press). Though assigned "male" at adoption (5 months of age) anyone with an IQ higher than their shoe size would have seen something was seriously wrong by the time I was 3. By the time I was 8, I knew what was wrong. By age 20, I simply wanted to blow my brains out! At the age of majority (21), I took control of my own life and started TELLING people what I wanted and what I wouldn't allow. If anybody had been listening, everything could have been put right at age 8, but I was "just a child" and the doctors were the "experts".
None of it had anything to do with fertility. As much as I wanted to have children, my own identity was paramount and had to come first. Even if I had working testes, they would have been expendable. If I had functional ovaries, I would have looked at reproductive possibilities but first and foremost HAD to be being myself, in my totality before being a parent would even be a consideration.
Something I wrote to a friend regarding my own situation, the general issue of genital surgery on IS babies, vs transsexuals, and, very importantly, the subject of the teevee show that Rosalee mentions... the 'story line' was taken off the REAL LIFE of a young man who was 'acted upon' exactly as described in the show... with an EXTREMELY different ending.
(letter)
One thing I do wish to make you understand – the majority of people with intersex (IS) conditions do not ascribe, or even – like – the connotation of their medical condition being lumped together with the transgender culture. Moreover, many (if not most) try to maintain a ‘normal’ life by living as well as they can in traditional roles, and consciously avoid being ‘outed’. But, there are those that have gone through with an official gender ‘change’, just to feel whole unto themselves.
Please remember, people Born with IS conditions did not have any choice in how they were born, or what adults did to them – they had NO say in what they felt, nor could they have done so – in many cases they were merely infants with no ability to communicate, other than to scream and cry.
However, transgender people are privileged in that they get to control their own destiny – they are adults with legal autonomy and free will, and can make conscious decisions based on informed consent. They got to live their infancy, childhood, and youth without the physical, psychological and emotional scars that have been forced on IS children. IS babies cannot speak, much less, give consent.
(one of my friends, also ‘done up’ at Yale, was operated on at 11 days old!!!)
Just to clarify… Dr.(and I use this term Very loosely!) John Money was not a surgeon and never did any surgery himself – he merely made recommendations about ‘what sex’ an IS child ‘should be’. He was trained in psychology, and gave himself the moniker of ‘sexologist’ back in 1954/55. (One point never brought out in the press is that he was a homosexual pedophile, although he was never ‘caught’)
The ‘case studies’ (based on his observations of hermaphrodites!) that he sited in his ‘ground-breaking’ work, were published in two papers in Nov.’54, and June’55. However, these observations were extremely limited and never analyzed, verified or given the scrutiny so necessary to validate such extreme findings. In short, his theories put forth the concept that Any child could be made into either sex, as long as the surgery was performed well enough, early enough, and followed up with the proper psychological and social ‘enforcement’!
His most visible work was his recommendation to ‘assign’ a normal boy, who had been the victim of a botched circumcision, as a girl!!! Moreover, the child was one of a pair of twin boys, so this circumstance provided a ‘control’ by which to gauge the success of his theories. The degree to which these two children were abused by Dr. Money in the course of ‘counseling’ them, is both indescribable and morally outrageous, if not outright criminal. However, nobody took the time to investigate what was happening to them. The ‘normal’ boy ended up abusing drugs to a significant degree, resulting in his death about [3] (~2002)years ago. And, just [last year](2005), the other boy – who at 14 was told the ‘truth’ of what was done, committed suicide at the age of 38. He had ‘transitioned’ back to a boy when he was told, and was attempting to make a go of what was left of his life. His story was made into a book a number of years ago under the title of “As Nature Made Him”, by author John Colapinto.
It must be noted that I was born just one month after Money’s last publication in ’55 – I feel Very strongly that it was due to this ‘new paradigm’ that it was decided that I was to become the ‘test subject’ on the validity of this new theory, by the doctors at Yale. That I was being put up for adoption allowed the doctors to control the outcome of this placement, thus guaranteeing them the opportunity to showcase their surgical and technological skills in applying this new paradigm. In other words, I became the assigned ‘lab rat’ for this lunatic’s theoretical missteps.
(Another item about Dr. Money)
http://www.bodieslikeours.org/forums/showthread.php?p=11169#post11169
(As to the subject of teevee)
http://www.bodieslikeours.org/forums/showthread.php?p=11496#post11496
Well... I think I've said enough for one day.
I've taken a long time to think about the idea of 'normal' since reading the discussion on the thread 'Everyday Gender'; ... there were certainly a number of extremely valid issues, ideas, and life situations brought up during the course of that thread.
BUT.... what I do think is the MOST Important Question to ask, is;
1) Is it NORMAL / MORAL / ETHICAL to Sexually Mutilate / Alter the genitals of an Infant or Young Child, even if this results in the child being Sterilized?
2) If So, then WHEN is this type of action justified?
RW:... I particularly want to hear YOUR RESPONSE, given your extensive writings on the idea of 'Normal'.
In my mind, the word normal just means average, or common, and the word normal in no way implies moral correctness or goodness.
It is normal for stupid people to do stupid things, and yet the stupid things done by the stupid, very likely will not be recognized as stupid by other stupid people. So among the stupid, normal itself, will be stupid.
It is normal for evil people to do evil things, and yet the evil things done by evil people, will very likely be counted as good by other evil people. So among the evil, normal itself, will be evil.
Unfortunately we live in a world dominated by well educated and highly trained stupid people with great memories, who have their heads stuffed full of, more often than not, erroneous and useless information, and it is they who both determine and enforce what they call normal, just, lawful and good.
I believe the word evil also deserves a cursory look.
I find it interesting that in our language, the very word evil, is the word live spelled backward. I think it fair to say, that evil has long been the very standard by which all things are measured, and it is the ideal to which all things are conformed. I have noticed, that the more successful people, are those who make decisions affecting other people. These are the rulers, judges and officers, the authorities, experts and consultants, our leaders of every stripe everywhere. Such people are almost always very normal, and they are often very earnest in their desire to do good and combat evil. They are convinced that they are doing the right thing and helping others. I sure wish, that at least, they would stop helping us.
I really like the TV show called MYTHBUSTERS. There is in my opinion something entirely wholesome about watching a few humorous guys and gals, having so much innocent childlike enjoyment, just blowing shit up. I rather like the maxim of the show oft repeated at the beginning. "I reject your reality, and I substitute my own."
Then again, I am neither normal or educated, and so what do I know?
Sunshine1
12-21-07, 08:15 PM
Wyn
No it isn't normal moral or ethical...
But I have to say that all I'm telling you is my opinion about something of which I know very very little. There are clearly many many people who use this forum who have a very great deal more right to be listened to on this matter than I have. And I wouldn't ever have offered any comment on this had you not asked directly.
Unless I misunderstand I think you are asking me about something very different from what I wrote about.
I have been wondering whether to re-post my previous comments in their own thread. Do you feel that would be appropriate? As I said last time, all I wanted to do was to throw some ideas forward to see what people thought. Clearly last time I chose the wrong thread to do this on.
Why did you chose my post?
It's easy to minimize/ make an example of my post and tell me How it is but you can't answer Wyn now?
Sunshine - you were right to complain that I'd written something on the thread that you'd started that was on a different subject from the one you'd raised. I said sorry, because that wasn't a good thing to do. And I'm still sorry I upset you - that was never my intention. And I was never disagreeing with what you said - in fact one reason I was unhappy that I'd upset you was because I thought what you'd said was so good. Wyn's post is also about something completely different and pretty much unrelated, which is why I haven't said any more than to give the short answer I did above: No it isn't normal or moral or ethical.
Hi Sunshine1!... in truth, RW has answered my question in an expected fashion…
Quote; “I have to say that all I'm telling you is my opinion about something of which I know very very little.”
Enough said.
Its one thing to talk about being ‘normal’… i.e., being able to live your life as you were born, without intervention of any significant kind. Most people in this world are ‘normal’ given this constraint, albeit, each with their unique experiences, traits and physiologies.
Have some been terribly harmed due to an accident or had serious health problems during the course of their lives – yes. Have some had horrible upbringings by their parents/caregivers – yes. Have some ‘fallen by the wayside’ due to no fault of their own – yes.
But, the Vast majority of people are NOT forced to be the Gender that they aren’t physically/mentally. Many IS Infants have been surgically attacked/sterilized, hormonally manipulated, told lies and half-truths, made to feel ashamed and dirty, and psychologically brainwashed and emotionally manipulated to be something they really aren’t, in almost 50% of these ‘assignments’ - FROM BIRTH OR SHORTLY AFTER. In many instances, they have been harmed in such a way that ‘sexual pleasure’ is not possible. Many have lived lives bereft of affection and love, all because they don’t/can’t function ‘normally’, or are just outright rejected BECAUSE they aren’t ‘normal’… even After surgery, and in many cases BECAUSE of the surgery.
Apple; In terms of what you’ve described, how can someone be ‘Happy’, given these overwhelmingly negative actions and reactions to a person’s being? From infancy, no less. Yes… I can agree that the notion of ‘victim-hood’ has become all too prevalent and results in all kinds of problems, both in the broader social context, and individually. If one puts themselves ‘down’, they can never ‘get up’ and do what needs to be done.
Truly, the REAL PROBLEM is that of a society that cannot tolerate ‘abnormal’… at least what THEY define as ‘abnormal’ (again, apple make a most valid point about ‘vested powers’)… and in this case, you must either male OR female, with No ambiguity.
I place the blame for this situation Squarely on the shoulders of the medical/psychological community, with the legal community close behind. These are the people/professions that should be saying - Enforcing that …. “It’s NOT OK to sexually alter infants and children for social reasons. That it IS OK to be intersexed… genitally ambiguous” … whatever term you wish to use.
This approach is not something new. We’ve seen these same changing attitudes (the acceptance of ‘abnormal’) develop over time with a number of other ‘ailments’… Down’s Syndrome comes to mind first… then there’s people with amputations which have seen a great deal of attention due to the increasing numbers caused by ‘the war’ (take your pick!), which to this group, we can add the overriding moniker of ‘people with disabilities’… and, now, we’ve seen TG/TS become ‘acceptable’, or, at the very least, acknowledged in the broader social context.
HOWEVER… we have YET to see ANY forward movement with just the Acknowledgement, MUCH LESS ‘Acceptance’, of IS conditions in any significant fashion, such that genital mutilation/altering – ‘Normalization’ – has been eliminated from the medical lexicon. This is what I rail against, and continually try to make a point about to anyone who will listen.
I know I’m ‘preaching to the choir’ here, but, believe me… there are many medical professionals who read these posts. My own recent surgical experience only bolsters the arguments I’ve been making, although, truthfully, my location (New England) generally has a more liberal/progressive attitude than many parts of the US. One can only hope that this attitude filters to the remaining practitioners of the ‘old protocol’ in a most quick fashion.
I was very disappointed to find, on CNN.com’s Health section, under the “Conditions A-Z” / Children’s Health”, a link to the Mayo Clinic - http://www.cnn.com/HEALTH/library/DS/00668.html
where they describe the ‘actions’ that can be taken regarding ‘ambiguous genitalia’.
I have a very good mind to write a scathing indictment of their mindless adherence to the ‘protocols’ that have now been proven to be Wrong. (i.e.; Dr. Eric Villian; http://www.medpagetoday.com/tbindex.cfm?tbid=585)
Apple; In terms of what you’ve described, how can someone be ‘Happy’, given these overwhelmingly negative actions and reactions to a person’s being?
KNOW YOUR WORTH
The moment you do, you will cease to get overwhelmingly negative reactions, because you will know that such are the actions of those who are beneath you, and you wont be phased at all let alone overwhelmed.
Who cares what some emotional retard thinks? Seriously now. Ask yourself this question. Who cares what some emotional retard thinks?
Such people rarely, find anyone, who gives a damn what they think, and that is for a very good reason. It is because they are so desperate to find someone, anyone, whom they can feel superior too, that they are on 'the lookout' for anyone they think to be vulnerable. Think about that for minute, and then read that again.
They feel desperately inferior and self conscious, and being miserable as they are, they hunt for company. They become very good hunters eventually, and so they can immediately spot someone with low self esteem. It doesn't matter how good looking or normal you are either. If you don't know your worth, they will notice, and they will temporarily alleviate their misery at your expense.
It really and truly doesn't matter, what one looks like, or how much education or money one has, and the poor miserable wretches, who hunt for people to ridicule, are perfect examples verifying that. Such self hating, emotional retards, can be very good looking and successful people, who have lots of "friends" who are as bad off as they are. Such people may appear to be happy and successful, and yet if they really are, they would act very differently, drunk or sober. Trust me, despite all their carrying on, partying and flaunting their stuff, if they are into ridiculing other people, then they are unhappy fearful and miserable. Pity such people. The truly wealthy and beautiful, regardless of their appearance and economic status, simply do not feel the need to ridicule others, and they feel little more than compassion and pity for those who do.
The moment you begin, to know your worth, you become wealthy in the only way that matters, and believe you me, the poor wretches trying to put people down, envy those of us with self esteem, despite whatever they have and whoever they are.
KNOW YOUR WORTH
You may appear normal and even be quite physically attractive, and yet be unhappy, feeling very self conscious and inferior, and I know this to be true from past personal experience.
KNOW YOUR WORTH
apple; ... Certainly, I can agree with much that you have written. Yes... adults should not care what any 'emotional retard thinks'.
BUT... what about infants, young children, adolescents? These are the 'people' that are the Most violated in terms of actions taken against them due to their IS conditions, of which this post is all about.
These are individuals that have no history, and do Not have the life experiences, nor either the mental or social development to deal - 'in an adult manner' - with the atrocities that have been done to them. They only know about their own limited lives, and only in the most vague terms, the things that have been done to them...and even then... in the majority of cases, they Don't Know.
How can a child come to grips with, and 'intelligently deal with' the terrible actions of their own caregivers, when they are kept in the dark, and are fed lies and brainwashed into believing what these 'adults' want them to 'be', many times contrary to what they think/feel?
It is one thing to be able to think in a rational fashion, with a lifetime of experience, combined with a sense of self-worth, to the problems of everyday life.
It is quite another to have had a lifetime of bodily intrusions, scars (emotional and physical), to be fed falsehoods about who and 'what' you are, and on top of all this, to 'know something is wrong', without ever being given a straight answer. And, I won't even get into the issue of professional and familial abuse.
These are the issues that need to take precedence when talking about Genital Mutilation – Normalization – of IS infants and children. If we treat these infants and children with the same (legally enforced!) respect we ‘reserve’ for adults who have the ability to control any medical actions suggested, based on Informed Consent, then we can expect to see these children grow into the emotionally and intellectually balanced adults we hope them to be. People who ‘Don’t give a damn about what other people think’, Because they have the knowledge, and thus the power, to fend off the thoughts and opinions of the ‘idiots’ of this world.
I can say right here… it’s taken me 52 years to reach this point of ‘not giving a damn’… and Only because I now Understand ‘What Was Done’. I now have the ability to look past these brutal actions, and try and deal with them as best I may, and to try and move my life forward, which, I’m happy to say, is well on its way.
To suggest that a child, that is mutilated and lied to, should react as an adult should, is Not a rational thought.
How can a child come to grips with, and 'intelligently deal with' the terrible actions of their own caregivers....
Indeed, they can not! It takes DECADES to begin to undo the damage that is so easily done to children and in many cases and in some ways it is NEVER undone.
Thee comments like "You were defective; I should have taken you back!" (to the adoption agency) or "It would be better if you killed yourself!" (in response to being suicidal and needing to change gender roles) cut a child to the core of their Being. Thankfully, the abuse was severe enough that I walked out - my sister (who is physically normal) also got the abuse but to a lesser degree - she didn't cut the ties and was an emotional basket case in to her 40's.
apple; ... Certainly, I can agree with much that you have written. Yes... adults should not care what any 'emotional retard thinks'.
BUT... what about infants, young children, adolescents? These are the 'people' that are the Most violated in terms of actions taken against them due to their IS conditions, of which this post is all about.
I had to begin somewhere in my response to this subject Wyn.
Since you said that you agree, with what I have said so far, isn't it irrational for you to take offense at what I have not yet said and what you presume that implies? The rest of your post, makes it appear that you think I haven't clue, and that is simply not the case.
I am sure, that when you step back and think about it, we can agree that this is surely also about more than IS children alone. How can we survivors, be of any real help them, as long as we remain victims of our own outrage resentment and frustration?
We all need to sort through our emotional issues regarding this Wyn. Otherwise as we continually express our anger and resentment, we just recharge it even banking up more, as we alienate those we need on our side by ranting and being preachy. I think it obvious, that because we all tend to harbor anger and resentment, we too often even displace our anger as we start viewing even each other as adversaries.
I am not excusing myself, and neither am I claiming to be an exception either Wyn. I am working on it even as we speak. This is not a flame, and in fact far from it.
How can a child come to grips with, and 'intelligently deal with' the terrible actions of their own caregivers, when they are kept in the dark, and are fed lies and brainwashed into believing what these 'adults' want them to 'be', many times contrary to what they think/feel?
As children we can't. I had precious little, all too brief exposure, to mature good hearted adults while growing up. Fortunately such experiences had a powerful impact upon me, and I was lucky enough to cling to that, at least as much as all the torment frustration and confusion that was my childhood, as well as the resulting outrage that welled up inside me as I approached my teens.
As I continue to progress toward maturity, I have learned that it is a very slow process, of letting go of what I choose to no longer hang on to. I know that you are also well aware Wyn, that takes time, and yet it takes also a continuing renewal of our perspective. I know that I still sometimes go off track, and I begin to draw from the heavier, darker water, still remaining at the bottom of the well.
It is one thing to be able to think in a rational fashion, with a lifetime of experience, combined with a sense of self-worth, to the problems of everyday life.
It is quite another to have had a lifetime of bodily intrusions, scars (emotional and physical), to be fed falsehoods about who and 'what' you are, and on top of all this, to 'know something is wrong', without ever being given a straight answer. And, I won't even get into the issue of professional and familial abuse.
In my case it was not an 'either or' situation Wyn, and I am not so sure it is for anybody else either. I believe I see resentment at work. I was not spared medical and surgical abuse. I did not, grow up with anything, even remotely resembling a good self image. I did not, have it relatively easy, as you seem to presume that I may have.
I hope that by now you realize, that I understand all of this, both intellectually and emotionally, from my own personal experience. If you presume, that I had it any easier than you did Wyn, then you presume wrongly, and you do yourself a grave disservice.
I wanted very much to avoid making this about me, my life and what I had to endure while growing up, and that is for many reasons. Really though primarily, it is because when I look back, I too often plunge into that lonely, chill and dark sticky water, that sadly I fear may always remain at the bottom of my well. I drowned in it perpetually as a child, dying and reviving over and over, and for too long as a supposed adult, I could barely get to the surface for those desperate quickly drawn gasping breaths. I find it far better, to remember also the good in my life, and so I labor carefully to maintain a perspective, conducive to living life as it is now and even can be. I am not a victim. I am far more. I am a victorious survivor.
Please take this recommendation, as not merely patronizing trite advice, but as a heartfelt recommendation very well intended. Get a copy of the new Disney animated film, Meet The Robinsons. Rent it, borrow it, buy or steal it, and then watch it until it makes you weep, as it did for me, on my second viewing of it.
Peace to you dear Wyn.
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