Interference?

[Ana]

As a partner of an intersexed person, I believe it´s easy to interfere too much in your intersexed partner´s life...
As a partner you like to help, esp. as your partner him/herself isn´t active when it comes to contact with other intersexed.
It´s a kind of resignation.
Like " I can´t change things anyways, so why?" Instead, my partner tends to isolate herself from other people but agrees that it actually might be good for her to meet other people with similar experiences to talk to.

Sure, she should make the first step. But sometimes you also need a push forward...
I´m just afraid that if I don´t help her to get in touch with others, then she will never make the step herself.
She just sort of shut things out and prefers not to think about them... I believe that must be a dilemma for many intersexed?
To rather ignore it as "non-existant", just like people around you always have dealt with it.

´Cause who will help you anyway? There aren´t any psychologists around that we know of and that are fully aware of this problem, that you can turn to. And parents are not able to even touch the subject.
However as a partner, I think you should watch out so that you don´t become your partners personal psychologist.
The task might be too heavy in the long run.

A

[claraJane]

Ana,

Meeting another person who has the same intersex condition, especially someone who has a similar background can do wonders for one's psychological health. However, it can also be traumatic.

The first time I went to an AIS support group meeting was wonderful. Most of the women were really pretty ordinary and I thought, well maybe I'm normal too... But then when I returned home I got really depressed because the very fact that there were other women with my condition meant that my condition was real. That made it harder to ignore it.

I go through cycles where I sign up for any new list I can find and then drop off of them and go entirely offline for a while. I have to speak to someone who understands but yet I want to entirely forget it as well.

Sorry, but I'd be quite happy to sell my IS condition to someone else. Really, really cheap, too! But then I guess that I wouldn't be the same person, would I?

cjs

[Ana]

Hi!

Sounds pretty much like my partner is doing.

'She' also went through some really active phases where 'she' WAS really involved and read everything about IS, signed on lists etc. And then... she completely dropped it. Perhaps it became too real... to much to bear. I´m not sure. Now 'she' doesn´t even open the ISNA newsletters, can barely stand to watch any documentaries or read any documents with transgender contents at all etc.
She says she just wants to 'go on with 'her' life' but how do you really go on with your life, just trying to ignore the facts??
It´s depressing not being able to do something about what you have been through, not being able to have a "normal" life (whatever that is). That´s natural. The surgeries has already been done and you can´t erase that. But I think it´s important to not let it control your life completely. To find a way to deal with the painful facts. But it takes time.

I don´t know. I wasn´t born intersexed. I didn´t have to go through all this medical abuse and denial, but instead I was mentally abused and had a lost childhood that I can never get back... You cannot change the past. It´s a cruel fact, but I guess you really have to mourn and get through all the anger, sadness and whatever "negative" emotions that you have in order to reclaim your life and identity. And I think you need some help to sort out your feelings. Something was taken away from you: Your right to exist, and that is sure pretty traumatic!
But I believe things ARE getting better! More people know about IS today than just 10 years ago. And the non - intersexed I speak to (incl myself) are more fascinated about gender problems/identity and upset about the medical mistreat, than disgusted or afraid of IS or intersexed people (sure it depends a bit on where you live. people in larger cities often tend to be a bit more openminded).

That is why sites like this one is great so that people can meet and support each other.
All the best
A

[RGMCjim]

Ana,
Your partner is very lucky to have your love and support. It's not easy being a partner to one of us - if you ask mine he'll tell you..... well actually if you'd like to ask mine let me know. It might not be such a bad thing to talk to someone else who has an intersexed partner. Tim has dragged me kicking and screaming into all kinds of things that I would never have had the courage to face myself. I've got an extremely healthy sex and social life due in large part to his patience, persistance and occasional butt kicking.
It sounds like your partner's overwhelmed, depressed and withdrawing. It's hard facing the fact that "getting on with your life" includes carrying intersex along with you. Once you realize that being intersexed affects every part of your being, that you aren't male or female - you're intersexed it's not easy integrating your identity. However, once we do it sets us free in ways we could never have imagined. Males and females grow up knowing that's what they are. Most of us don't, and if we do we don't know what it MEANS. We waste enormous energy trying to be what society thinks we should be instead of discovering and growing into what we actually are. It can be very overwhelming to sort through all the issues. If she can find a good Certified Sex Therapist it could be great. I would never be where I am today without mine.
Sharon Preeves new book, "Intersex and Identity -The Contested Self" describes the formation of identity beautifully. Even if your partner isn't in a place where she can read that sort of stuff I highly recommend it for you.
THE biggest breakthrough moment in our relationship came when we realized that we weren't a gay male couple. We're gay, we're men, we're a couple - but we're a male/intersex couple. That may not sound like much but for us it was HUGE. We stopped trying to be what we weren't and started to discover what we were. Suddenly a whole lot of things came into focus and it was like a wall between us crumbled down. She may feel like her life is coming to an end, but it's actually just about to start.

Best of luck,

Jim

[Kaads]

Hej!
As IS person sometimes I feel myself as the only such in all the world. I really appreciate you for support you give to your friend. I think almost every IS dreams about meeting other persons alike. The problem of our countries, I think more pronounced in Latvia than in Sweden is that these are relatively small countries. So the number of IS persons is also little. Almost everybody here at bodies are from US And it is more easy to really meet each other. Here in Latvia I have never met any person like me. In llast time I looked very much in gay web sites hoping to get information about local Baltics IS community but found no evidence that such exists. May be it is good idea to try find each other through bodieslikeours and try to make contacts.What do you think?

[RGMCjim]

Kaads,
I'm not sure it's any easier to find other intersexed people in the USA. Until people started talking on the internet I had never found another person like me. So, the first 40 years of my life I was totally isolated. As it is I've only met 3 intersexed people face to face and that happened last year. Only one of them lives in my state! We're here, it's just we're so blasted closeted...... I'm working very hard to change that where I live and I've got the help of the a large part of the Gay community doing it. By this fall I hope to have made so progress and getting others to step forward. I can only try.

Jim Costich

[uriela]

I am at a loss as how to title this. Actually I am trans (watch the people run away from this post!). Many on this list would not know how to handle that revelation.

Most of my friends are so-called "normies". I.e. they don't have "my" problem and they don't really know how to deal with it.

It happens that my therapist has dealt with "my kind of people" for twenty years. But a lot of people are not so lucky. I found her through AEGIS out of Texas and it turned out that her office is only a mile from my office. She started out counseling lesbians. About a year ago one of the people she was seeing turned out to be intersex. She and I just happened to meet outside my therapist's office.

Someone had to train my therapist, get her feet wet. I am sure that intersex people have pretty much the same problem, that they end up being the trainer. It's gotta start somewhere! Her first comment to me was that I was pretty brave in coming to meet her.

I had pretty much figured what I was from my web contacts. I had been on a number of cross-dressing lists. I even went to some of their meetings. It took me over a year to figure out that I just didn't belong there. Believe me, I didn't "come out" there at all!! I felt that they were prejudiced against us! Years before I thought I was gay. Maybe luckily I never developed a relationship. Years before that I thought I was intersex. Then I hoped I would, because it would explain things. Other people had gone through different routes. You don't come into this world with a consumer care label or a book of instructions. Nobody does.

I'm into my second marriage as a male. Now we don't have any sexual relationship at all. Well, it certainly wouldn't be "normal". As things stand, for-get-it!

Back to the point: She went along and "covered" for me. My boss at work "covered" for me. My parents "covered" for me. My friends (?) "covered" for me. My father still hopes that I will "come to my senses." I am sure that he is still hiding things from me. A friend came over to my house, one of the ones who first learned what I was (it really didn't matter to her) and I was telling my wife that it was okay to call me "she". My wife, to give her credit, has had to give her ideas about me up and has done lots and lots of studying and, in a moment of shock, told me I HAD to see a counselor and HAD to get divorced. She'd keep in touch, etc. etc.

BTW I want to point out a problem with nomenclature. People speak of "homophobia". Based on the derivation of the word, it does not mean "fear of homosexuals" OR "fear of men (or mankind)". It means "fear of the same". The proper term would be "xenophobia", "fear of the strange(r)".

We (humans) are all different. I've been going through a period now that I have been calling myself a freak. I mentioned this to a friend in a web chat and her first comment was that in her opinion "WE ARE ALL FREAKS!" I mentioned this to another friend yesterday and before I got to that part she said exactly the same thing. BTW when we first met and I was wearing a dress and she was bawling her eyes out, her first question was, "What ARE you ANYWAY?" Frankly I don't think I even understood her question.

I have really met very few transsexuals. Oh, maybe a hundred or so. Probably even more, but we don't recognize each other. We don't exactly go around with signs on our backs. You never know how anyone might feel about such things. It is not exactly a topic that comes up in "polite" conversation. I am sure I am a topic in the gossip mills and I hear of others that others know about in the same county I live in. But noone introduces us to each other. And sometimes I think that we are afraid of each other and afraid to be associated with each other.

I had an orchiectomy a few months back and do you think I tell EVERYBODY about THAT? If I did, how many idiots and twits and xenophobes and hate-mongers would be on my case? Oh, I've had a taste of that already. I've also had a lot of congratulations, sometimes from quarters I didn't expect.

Oh, I want to tell you all how grateful I am to have found this site, even though I am a stranger here myself.

xoxoxoxox

Zhanai

P.S My therapist describes being TS (F2M, that is) as having AIS of the brain. So, I suppose that an F2M would have "estrogen insensitivity of the brain". I think of it more as an antipathy. And certainly biological and not psychological, but most people's physical makeup gibes and for them it is not a problem.

[Ana]

Thank you, I really do appreciate all this feedback! :)

I think that it would be great if there were some sort of camp or similar, where IS and transgender people could get together and meet up with each other once/twice a year or so.
I don´t know if such camps/gatherings already exists?

I believe that one of the worst things is the sense of isolation among IS and transgender folks. There shouldn´t be.
In Stockholm, intersex and transgender issues does exist and are being discussed f.ex at the Pride festival, and last year at the Stockholm Shame festival (www.shame.nu) where they had an "intersex-block" showing for instance Shoronas stripmovie: http://www.geocities.com/greenpiratequeen/index1.html
IS/transgender activist Del LaGrace Volcano were here too, talking about IS and showing his movie about his cousin Heidi - who also happens to be intersexed.

Let me know if you know any kind of meetings or so where we can meet up!

Best regards A

[RGMCjim]

Uriela,
As I started to really understand that being intersexed affected my entire being I started looking at my gender issues in a different light. Some of it is typical of any gay man, some different. I began wondering if I might not find some comonality with transgendered and transsexual people so I joined the local transgender group. I'm now one of the leaders. Gay, lesbian, transgendered, intersexed, transsexual - we're all gender variant. Some of us are brothers/sisters to each other and some just distant cousins, but I've found common ground everywhere.

Jim

[uriela]

Jim,

I would have to travel at least 50 miles to the nearest trans group and I'm just not up to it any more. I'm a working girl and one monthly meeting requires an hour and a half drive, no one to share the ride with, during the rush hour. I chanced on PFLAG and it turned out that there was a group just starting up only about fifteen miles from home. Chapters are all over the place.I know, "Parents, Friends, and Families of...", how the heck could I fit in? Maybe I needed a touch of "normalcy"? Only a few of us keep returning. SO's need help coming to terms with things and keeping themselves together too. Community of some sort or other helps us to overcome that "shame" (Thanks, Ana!) which prevents us from being part of the larger world. E.g., post-menopausal women and other women going through "changes" of all sorts have been a big help to me. I am surprised at how many people think that only one time is enough. "Transforming Families" is one book that might help, <http://www.aiyiyi.com/transbook/>, both for those coming to realization of what their gender is and for those who are concerned by it.

I'm coming out of a long-term depression and sometimes it is a trial just getting out the door. It took me about nine months to finally take my therapist's advice and start on anti-depressants. My doctor was quite willing to prescribe them, and, no wonder, since I was pretty non-communicative with either when I first started seeing them. I just heard another horror story about someone's dealings with a psychiatrist so I think I am terribly fortunate. When you can't keep your wits about you you really do need friends with their wits about them. And who know when it is time to leave you alone.

One day at a time!

tata!!

[Wohali]

Ana I am touched by your love and concern for your intersexed partner. I think some intersexed do have "issues" with meeting other intersexed. Goodness knows I've tried to arrange meetings with other IS. I was fortunate to meet another intersexed last summer who lives in same state. For first time, actually only time in my life, I felt like I was FINALLY looking into the eyes of another person just like me. Someone of the same gender.

I've tried to arrange meetings with others, yet as the time grew closer they suddenly ceased all communications. So Kaads though you surely feel isolated in Lativa, let me say many of us in the US feel same as you do. We do not have intersexed group meetings; there is no club where we all hang out. God knows I wish there was! If people would ever be honest about themselves, I think we would find many intersexed hiding out under the veils of the gay & lesbian society. I think some transgenders are probably undiagnosed intersex too.

Ana- I have a question for you. How did you meet your partner? Was the fact of being intersexed something your partner told you from the very beginning? I ask because I am still fumbling trying to figure the best way to be honest about what I am without scaring away potential partners. So far I either scare the daylights out of them with honesty. Or else they "accept" me but saying intersexed as like Angels, that is being born of both sexes. They then want to use me for their own pleasure: to satisfy their curiousity and then dump me after they have gotten what they wanted. Sometimes I really hate the "normal" people.

[Ana]

Angela,

I met my partner through a site for bi/lesbian women and yes, 'she' was open about her IS in her first presentation.
The response she has got from other 'normal' women are mostly curiousity and interest for IS as something 'exotic'. But no, she says she has been quite lucky(?) not to have had the negative sexual experiences with partners.
I don´t know, but it is likely that you, like my partner did, also discover that it can be quite complicated having a relationship with a 'normal' person, as well... it´s easy to compare yourself to your 'normal' partner esp. sexually and you´ll feel sexually inferior to him/her, as your 'normal' partners experiences differs from yours.
It seems to me that many intersexed people are very/too concerned about how you´ll be received and accepted by non-intersexed people. That you are somewhat looking for our 'approval', as being 'normal' enough for a relationship. And if it doesn´t work out, you feel like a failure.
You mention a fear of scaring away potential partners.
So what if they do get scared? It is not your responsability!
If they do get scared that easily, they´re not potential partners anyways!
I mean, perhaps it´s not really what you are looking for, anyway? Perhaps you shouldn´t go for 'normal people'.
Instead of looking for answers why some of us act like 'we' do, ask why 'normal people' are that important? What can 'we' give YOU? Instead of what you can give 'us'. I believe it can be very harmful to measure yourself against normality.
I doubt that normality is something worth striving for.
But I guess that as us "one-genders" still are the 'ruling Normality', we are unfortunately quite obsessed with what others can give us.
Which is totally wrong.

All the best,
A

[Kaads]

Hi!
Ana, you ask very interesting question about what we want from normal world. I have never thought about it. As it seems for me the problem is that almost everybody of us, IS people, try to fit in the bipolar model of the world which is based on gender difference. All construction of human culture seems to be divided into 2 parts. In last years the difference becomes smaller but still the first question about newborn is - boy or girl. I don`t know exactly what we want from the normal world- perhaps just possibility to be accepted and abuse of shame and shock in normal people eyes, when IS claims who he/she is. Acceptance means also possibility to have normal partner as well as be honest with normal friens. I suspect if our percent in community could be at least higher than 1 the situation would be totally different. May be it would be alike GLB community. I know that relatively big amount of gays and lesbians live in their own world and are segregated from "normal" community. For example gay clubs- almost nobody of the people who visit Latvian gay clubs do not go to traditional places. The other question for IS people that seems very interesting for me- if you will have possibility to choose normal or IS partner- which would you prefer?

[Wohali]

Ana and Kaads,

Since you are both proposing sorta the same question here's my answer. I am looking for a "normal" person because the vast majority of world is non-IS. If I set out looking for an IS partner, I might not ever come across another in my entire lifetime. And its one thing for such a person to be IS, but to also be single and be someone that cares about me, that I have something in common with... well that really makes it even more difficult to find an IS partner. I really don't care if my partner is IS or "normal" female. Normal male however is not my cup of tea. I just want someone that is looking for a commited, monogamous relationship. Finding that alone is a neither impossibility the way the current generation views relationships. And besides ...I'm not getting any younger. I'm tired of always being ALONE. Everywhere I go, alone, every weekend alone, almost every holiday either working or ALONE.

[RGMCjim]

Hey All,
Ana made some really great points. I loved her post. Here's some of my humble musings.

When I was young other's blamed all sorts of things on my being intersexed. I internalized that and eventually my fear of being set apart disconnected me from others. People picked up on my fear of rejection and blamed my being intersexed for every little thing, no matter how unrelated, which only convinced me that it was impossible for others to see me as human. It took me 8 years of therapy with a certified sex therapist who is also gay for me to finally see how I perpetuated the pattern and what I had to do to break it. Some of what I learned is this:

Being intersexed is a great excuse to blame things on but rarely, if ever, is it the issue we - or they - make it out to be. Did he/she tell you that you're a great lover and they hope you find someone who can "deal" with "it" but it's not them? It's horseshit. That's not the reason they broke up with you. I know, I know, I argued that point too, but the therapist was right. There were real reasons, but that wasn't one of them. Intersex is a very handy scape goat. (Note to Angela, "If any rude, arrogant, slob ever grabs your genitals and demands to know "what this is" again, grab her belly, love handles, hips, thighs, or saggy boobs and demand the same thing. Then point her Barbie ass to the door. She is the one with a problem, not you.")

NOBODY is normal - strive for normal and you plunge yourself into a phantasmagoria of fruitless endeavor. Waste your time, your commision, your gifts, your life. God won't hold you accountable for NOT being Moses, She'll hold you accountable for not being you.

People fall in love with people. Not genitals. Sexy is as sexy does, feels and lives. Intersexed people have as much potential for open, loving, hot sexuality as anyone else. This isn't a theory with me, it's the voice of experience- I actually do have a VERY varied and vibrant sex life. People started feeling good about me right after I started feeling good about myself and focused on them and us, instead of being hung up on me.

People struggle. It's ok to do that when they are first introduced to intersex. Think how many years you've struggled with intersex issues. Give them a break.

Self pity is a form of self-centered, self-absorbed, vanity. The saying we have in the gay community about obcessing over having been persecuted and not wanting to be what we are applies all gender variant people, and others as well; "It's time to get over yourself!"

I suffered far more with gay issues than I have with intersex issues. Other gay men have suffered with gender issues and body image issues more than me and I'm the one with the tiny penis and a vagina for God's sake. They're just fey! Truth is, EVERYONE is held up to a totally impossible fantasy of gender/sex roles and EVERYONE suffers in some way for it even if we got far more than our share of misery.

When my partner and I go looking for sex they are more likely to turn him down for being overweight than they are me for being intersexed. Intersex is not the be-all and end-all in rejection. He's sometimes feels that being intersexed means I get the spotlight and none of the other performers ever get to the stage once I'm there. Imagine that.

Intersex is not your orientation. There is no such thing as "us" intersexed, and "them" gay/bi/lesbian/straight. If we're intersexed we're also one of those other things unless we're assexual, (which I personally suspect doesn't happen unless we're dead or too damaged to function at all). Intersexed is about our sex. Orientation is about who we're attracted to and where that puts us in community with others. We would do ourselves a great service to learn more about gender/orientation.

We need to take back our lives, our gender, our religion, our sexuality, our identities, if we're going to have those things at all, and we ARE ENTITLED TO THEM. It's truly amazing what the word, "NO!" can do.

Eleanor Roosevelt, a wise, famous, accomplished, bisexual, physically ugly, stateswoman once said, "No one can make you feel inferior without your permission." Hard truth to hear, but it is, nonetheless true.

Jim