View Full Version : Why Surgery?
I am reposting this from another forum. I have never posted to a forum before, and seem to have posted to the wrong place.
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Posts: 1
Why Surgery?
I am new to the BLO forums, and think that it is great that a place like this exists. In thinking over my own situation, I believe that the genital surgery that I had as a child was basically only for cosmetic reasons, and did not help me psychologically. I was born with a vaginal cleft which was surgically removed. I also had a deformed hip, and spent considerable time in a full body cast. A question that interests me is:
How did you react, if you had genital surgery, when other kids found out about your condition/scars?
Peter
Hi Peter,
Welcome to Bodies Like Ours! We have a pretty fun community here and I am sure you will be welcomed time and time again by most.
I had surgery as an infant (a total clitorectomy) that was done purely for cosmetic reasons. Regarding the scar tissue, as a child I always managed to be modest enough so no one would notice. Despite the surgery, my genitals don't look anything like unaffected female genitals.
The bigger obstacle was as a young adult and trying to explain away something I myself didn't even understand with sex partners. Once I learned my own story as an adult, it became a whole lot easier. Unfortunately, that didn't come until I was in my 30s.
Betsy
In thinking over growing up intersexed, I realize that my little bother had a major part in letting other kids know that I was intersexed. While parents and doctors played a big role in trying to bury me in shame, my little bother's curiosity about my own genital scars was strong. I can relate a couple of tales both bad and good.
Once when I was about seven years old, I was knocked unconscious when I slipped and fell playing with my bother and another friend. My bother was about five years old at the time. When I regained consciousness, I realized that my pants had been lowered. In questioning my brother, I realized that they had used my being unconscious to examine my scars. My brother blerted out something about how the parents had pressured him never to discuss my situation, but that he could not help himself. Unfortunately, word got around, and when I went to apply for membership in the Cub Scouts, I was turned away on grounds of my intersex condition.
On the other hand, my little brothers openness about my condition was not all bad. Once, when I was about eleven years old, another kid at summer camp approached me, and revealed his own intersex condition. He showed my his penis, and said that he had undergone painful operations because of a urethra condition. He further said that he wanted to talk with me because he had asked my little brother, who was also at the camp about me. That was a positive experience, and to this day I marvel at the ability of two eleven year old intersex children to find one another.
Anyway, I share these experiences to bring up issues involving other kids in the family and kids outside the family. I feel that intersex is often something of a glass closet. I am interested in hearing your story
Peter
Billie Q.
01-22-04, 08:56 AM
ptrinkl, and Betsy, thank you for sharing your stories. I can only imagine what your lives have been like; I can only empathize, sympathize and hope that these things stop happening to tiny babies who have no choice.
Your stories are what sparked my interest in BLO; your stories will motivate me to do what I can to raise awareness of IS, and surgical/medical issues.
ptrink, I thought it interesting that you wrote: "to this day I marvel at the ability of two eleven year old intersex children to find one another." I believe the Creator sent you a friend to show you weren't alone.
Dana Gold
01-22-04, 03:46 PM
My surgery was necesary, elsewise no pee pee for me, scarring: usual "tight" circumcision and slightly crooked/uneven looking "hole" from same surgery session...otherwise any comments by kids in elementary (P.E. class) were directed toward the it's size, and that I sat down to pee. Later, the focus was on my female shape and budding breasts. My reaction was of shame and alienation and great fear, since I endured a lot of ridicule from the kids and teachers (PE class mostly) both, and a few beatings and sexual abuse attempt by gym teacher and "student" to add to it all. I hated school (liked learning but not the people) and only had one friend: a retarded 17-year old boy, who everybody else in the neighborhood ridiculed, but were afraid of, because he was BIG. he protected me and I treated him nicely. we hung out with each other, 2 freaks in the 'hood.
Hi ,
I was a loner growing up.
I did not want to chance anyone making fun of me.
As to this day I still am a loner,
I do not have friends nor family members who want try to listen to me.
I have been always turned away by people I thought that I had loved.
I did not want anyone to find out I was IS. Being IS was too much for me then and I do not think I could handle riducule.
I was never told of being IS growing up I guess I was being spared the news.Trying to understand this being at a young age and knew that I was not perfect like I was told I was.
So I come here ,I talk , read and try to understand others. I have learned that there are some pretty smart individuals here. I have also found friends here. That is Nice for a change.I am honered to be able to be a part of this site.
Have a Nice day
Az1
Thanks for the responses. I really appreciate them. Earlier this week, as I was taking the elavator out of my local courthouse, after clearing a traffic citation, the man riding next to me in the elavator said out of the blue, "All people like you should be killed.". I was bummed out by his remarks. As my difference is threatening to so many people, it is a great relief to be able to safely post messages here. I have been reading other threads on this site as a way of becoming familiar with it, and the postings are really great.
Peter
As Peter said, "my difference is threatening to so many people...".
I continue to be mystified by those who are threatened by gender. I can't find it, but there was an article recently that claimed all the trouble in the mideast was due to their failure to keep men and women separated. A good trick in this crowd! And more to the point, pointless. The more our differences are emphasized, the more basis we develop for distrust.
*sigh*
Glenn
In reading over various past postings on BLO, I have not been able to find much evidence of distrust. I have noticed that IS people have been generally listed as "members" whereas non IS people have generally been listed as "guests". That is a difference, but I don't think that prevented an open sharing of ideas.
I think that sometimes people have problems if they think that they are not getting enough attention. I noticed that one poster left the forum recently because she said that she was disappointed with the amount of attention that she got. It did not seem to me that what she put into BLO was better than the insightful support she was getting from others.
Another poster said that they were a "true" hermaphordite, and a very creative and gifted person. I can see how insisting that one is a "true" hermaphrodite, can lead to distrust from ordinary garden variety hermaphrodites like myself, who is only a merm or "male psudo-hermaphrodite" acording to the now discarded five sex theory.
Peter
When I came on to "Bodies" I had come to the conclusion that I was "different" but not in an intersex way. It turned out that people were mostly afraid to talk to me about it. When it became apparent some people made jokes, but that wasn't bad and in a way it encouraged me to be more myself. I had tried to hide my "difference", which was more about how I felt about myself than anything else and I guess I did a very good job. Even though sometimes I don't think so.
I had not really told anyone much about myself until over thirty years ago. Mostly it was pretty safe, I thought, although once I was told that I didn't get a promotion that I wanted because I didn't wear a suit. I did get promoted out of the office and I thought it was because of the way I did my job, but the move had been decided even before I went for an interview. I was the only honkie left in an all black office and the office moved to a space just outside the projects. I had a couple of incidents on the subway and on the street and in the office and I guess it had become an issue of physical safety.
People just didn't dare talk to me about it unless they made a joke of it. One person only recently and over twenty years later said that she had recognized me as "one of them", but since I never mentioned it to her, she did not think it was her place to start a conversation with me about it. She was afraid that she might affront me.
After I came out was when the hoopla really began. The latest was when a priest told me that I was causing ALL the trouble at our retreat house and was muttering "homophobia", like I was supposed to understand what he was talking about. I'm not sure he knew, but when I told him that I was causing ALL the trouble that maybe I had better leave, he said they didn't want to lose me and to "pray about it". One friend told me that he wasn't very tactful about it but that I had rather an abrupt and disrespectful way of handling the situation.
One person wrote me a long time ago, "It's all about them, isn't it?" I do think it is about what people think and in a convoluted way it is. It is about what people think about what people think about THEM if they don't make some kind of response to show that they do not approve of ME. I have stepped outside the Normal. And they have read or heard or have been conditioned (just as I have) that that is wrong and now that they have finally been confronted with it and they have to show the rest of the world that they are Normal and not like me.
So it is really not about me and not about them but really about some other "them" who may or may not exist.
Of course, my own reaction to a situation where I was being dissed did not help very much. I didn't know how to deal with it either and ended up kissing this guy on the neck. He had told the priest that he felt like decking me. The priest brought this up almost a year later (when I could hardly remember it at all) and told me it was ALL MY FAULT. The other person's reaction was "understandable". Mine wasn't. I told it to a friend who happens to be gay and his response was, "What do you mean kissing a homophobe on the neck?" It, um, seemed like the right thing at the time. I was tired of just "taking it."
I am sure that I was taught at a very young age to "stuff it" and to pass as what I wasn't. I got by by being standoffish and introverted. I managed to be the teacher's pet. Luckily I never got into much of a physical confrontation about it as far as I know. I have had some people who've taken threatening postures. I'm laughing now at the leaders I've seen on some guys' necks. Oddly I probably had a lot of defenders just being the "oddball", as still happens to this day.
I was very afraid to post anything at all to this site when I first came on, because I didn't think that I fit in either. We are all "different'" and I would really not want very much to be meeting clones of myself wherever I went. Please save us from the "Brave New World."
I was always ashamed of my genitals, too, Peter. They always seemed weird to me, but nobody seemed to pay them any mind, except when I was about to enter high school and I had no pubic hair. Someone told me to ask my mother. I did. And it grew out the next year. And I was hoping I was obviously intersexed.
:confused:
claraJane
01-25-04, 04:49 PM
Uriela,
I've used the term "true hermaphrodite" but only in the medical sense. (i.e. having both ovarian and testicular tissue) The terms male pseudohermaphrodite and female pseudohermaphrodite, if used strictly as medical terms shouldn't indicate inferiority or distrust. I hope that I never came across that way when using these terms.
cjs
When I speak about IS issues, I often use my own history. CAH as you may know is under the female pseudo-hermaphrodite umbrella. Right about the time that everyone's jaw in dropping, I casually add that despite all the awful surgeries, I couldn't even be "a real hermaphrodite" It works everytime for a good laugh on an otherwise serious discussion.
Betsy
Just for the record, claraJane is not the member that I had in mind when I posted my remarks about "true" versus "psudo" hermaphrodites. I realize that in a context separate from the one that I was referring to, that claraJane had used the term "true hermaphrodite". In my mind, she used it in a pretty neutral way, and I was in no way offended by her remarks.
Thanks to uriela, Betsy, Dana, Az1, and Billie Q. for your replies to my original postings. I have not responded directly, but your sharing and encouragement are helping me explore myself psychologically. I am still in a state of shock that I could post such personal information about myself, and the sky not fall down. Your words have been beneficial.
Peter
Oh BTW, the Guest versus Member status has nothing to do with IS or not. The BLO community allows people to post who aren't members - they appear as Guest. Anyone can be a member, tho, whether IS, not IS, or parent of IS.
I was a March of Dimes child. My parents had no money, and they could not afford to pay for the medical procedures. They wanted to do right, and my father sold blood to help me.
I believe that parents of intersex children are often not told about the possible difficulties involved in "normalizing" a child. In addition to having my vaginal cleft removed, leaving several inches of scar tissue, I was placed in a full body cast for a deformity of my right hip. After spending considerable time in a cast trying to form/grow a hip joint, the doctors removed the cast. Unfortunately, they had not put the cast on properly, and I had developed a deep ulcerated wound on the front of my left leg. When this healed, it formed a scar several inches long, and about an inch wide. Then they repeated the casting all over again. On the second time, the procedure worked. I was able to eventually walk.
I remember examining my leg scar as a child. I used to sit on the playground, and look at the silvery translucent scar tissue which was like parchment. I first became aware of death through my scars. I felt that I was the victim of a botched experiment that I did not really understand. I had multiple scars to show for the doctors' efforts. With such massive scarring, it was impossible to hide my leg scar from other kids, who saw it as horrible.
At some point, when I was still about four years old, I developed the compulsion to go into the bathroom at night, and stuff all of the available toilet paper down my pants and then return to bed. That was the only time in my life that I ever felt voluptuous. I guess that I was trying to recreate the cast, and somehow control events through repetition. My mother was deeply horrified by my actions, and eventually was able to get me to stop my compulsion.
If you experienced botched procedures, or developed compulsions, I would be interested in hearing your story.
Peter
Interesting and somewhat familiar story, Peter.
I was premature 4-6 weeks, and my left hip socket hadn't fully formed yet. I was put in a cast from the waist down to hold my legs in place while the hip finished forming.
I apparently had restricted blood flow to my left leg and hip, which made my left femur noticably bowed at birth. Later had surgeries at the ages of 2, 4, 6, 12, and 14 to try to fix it. I'll omit the gory details. Suffice it to say my legs carry about 30" of scars. Didn't work too well - there's still a 3" difference in the lengths of my legs.
Oh, and we did the Shriner hospitals mostly. I still recall going to a circus at age 6 in a wheelchair.
And kids at the beach still stare at my leg. I like telling them it was a shark. :D
Glenn
Billie Q.
01-27-04, 11:11 AM
Originally posted by Glenn
And kids at the beach still stare at my leg. I like telling them it was a shark.
LOL :p
Billie Q.
01-27-04, 11:13 AM
Originally posted by Betsy
Right about the time that everyone's jaw is dropping, I casually add that despite all the awful surgeries, I couldn't even be "a real hermaphrodite" . . .
hehe;)
Thanks Billie Q for your postings. Yesterday, before I wrote my last post, I was feeling very distrustful of this forum, and figured why bother posting stuff here. I though of dropping out of this forum and going across the Internet pond to see what Emi is up to.
In talking about distrust, I think that the Glenn factor must be mentioned. In a recent post, I was gently trying to point out to Glenn that there did not seem to be the distrust amoung men and women that he was sighing about. Once, years ago, a guy I knew loudly sighed about the difference between men and women in a restaurant where me and a few friends were dining. All of the women in the restaurant within hearing distance cracked up scornfully. They could hardly believe their ears. Who can blame them? So, when Glenn sighed about the difference between men and women, I just wanted to get out of the room, so to speak.
I also felt that Glenn was complaining about lesbian members of this forum and the social space that they occupy. We can have a futher discussion about that at another time. I did notice with some interest that when Glenn posted his past mesage about his father-in law's health condition, that many people, whom I presume were of different genders and sexual orientations all offered words of encouragement and support. So, what happened when Betsy posted her message about her mom's condition? Glenn posted that "this really sucks". Does Glenn really believe that his actions contribute to building trust between him and others who posted messages of encouragement and support for Betsy?
My trust level is pretty low at this point, but I figure that most members of this forum want an open discussion of intersex issues.
Peter
Guests v members designation:
Actually, once you are registered and posting, you can designate your title as anything you want it to be.
When this board first was launched, registration was not required in order to post. Several people at the time requested that we do require registration for several reasons. Soon, a registration requirement was added that required the use of a valid email to complete the process. Those emails are stored for the safety of all our members.
Those who posted before the registration requirement still show as guests. Another way people show as guests is if they are no longer registered. There was one person who I banned because of abusive emails that were sent to other members as well as abusive postings. I'm happy to say that has been the only instance of that type of action.
Thankfully, the forums tend to self-police and it keeps creeps out really well. The really big creeps never confirm their registration (probably because the email is fake---you should see what some people enter as an email address!) which is another layer of protection.
Betsy
Billie Q.
01-29-04, 11:43 PM
Originally posted by ptrinkl108 Earlier this week, as I was taking the elavator out of my local courthouse, after clearing a traffic citation, the man riding next to me in the elavator said out of the blue, "All people like you should be killed." I was bummed out by his remarks.
I hope you were bummed out because you realized that moron would have to complete his whole life in a permanent state of stupidity.
Thanks Billie for your support. It is late at night, but since the couple in the apartment below me are fighting, I have retreated to my computer. Somehow, the old saying- "Sicks and stones may break my bones, but words will never hurt me". has come to my mind. Unfortunately, words uttered in hatred do hurt. I have a hard time imagining that I pose much of a threat to anyone, and yet the hatred continues.
When the guy in the elavator said what he said, I take it to be based on his fears of homosexuals. There is something in the popular mind that often associates androgeny with homosexuality, but I can't figure it out. I consider myself to be straight. In a stretch, I can consider myself bi-sexual, but not in a very good sort of way. Even after spending a couple of years in weekly group meetings at a local gay counseling center, I was never able to overcome my limitations. These things can go in long cycles, and one can be of one orientation during one part of one's life and another orientation during another part of one's life. But, I don't think that is is something that can be changed easily in the short term. Of course, I might be wrong about that. I know that many of my friends consider me to be a repressed homosexual. The truth is that I have never really been part of the either the straight or gay community.
Genital surgery is done on intersex children in the hopes of making them normal. I feel that I never had a normal day in my life. After the early childhood surgery, there is often hysteria in the family as the intersex child approaches puberty. I remember my mother pulling me aside, and wispering to me something about hormone therapy. I never needed hormone therapy.
I don't know if intersex conditions can be considered part of a third sex, but when I hit puberty, I was beset by great gender confusion. I was known to wander around the hallways of my junior high school. I was pulled from class on a regular basis, and had to spend an hour each afternoon sitting in the guidance counselor's office. I was sent at public expense to the local children's hospital and they ran all kinds of psychological tests. After a few weeks of testing, the doctor had a talk with me and said, "We believe that you will be normal". Well, for all the surgical and psychological belief in my possible normality, I do not seem to have turned out that way in the end.
claraJane
01-30-04, 08:22 AM
>Well, for all the surgical and psychological belief in my possible normality, I do not seem to have turned out that way in the end.
Peter, reading over some of your posts it sounds to me like you've turned out pretty well in spite of all of their interventions.
cjs ;)
Dana Gold
01-30-04, 12:03 PM
Dear Peter,
Sometimes it is ironic that in all of the past experiences (many of us here at BLO have had) with our "environment" and its many attempts to normalize us , (which leaves us feeling abnormal!) we "end up" somewhere/sometime in our lives, realizing we have been normal all along.. different, yes, but not what we were confronted with by others much less understanding about the true nature of our lives.....yet, coming to terms with oneself, after a lifetime of "indoctrination,correction & control" is a difficult task which requires courage, introspection and the receiving of support from people who have endured the same experience....It can be confusing, frightening and yet enlightening to finally discover oneself after having lived "in the darkness" for so many years ...Peter, .you are "in the light" here at BLO, please realize that your life is "in the right place"....take care...Peace and Love.
Dana:)
claraJane
01-30-04, 12:09 PM
If y'all get the chance you should read The Dosadi Experiment by Frank Herbert. Here are some reviews I found online...
"Generations of a tormented human-alien people, caged on a toxic planet, conditioned by constant hunger and war — this is the Dosadi Experiment, and it has succeeded too well. For the Dosadi have bred for vengeance as well as cunning, and they have learned how to pass through the shimmering God Wall to exact their dreadful revenge on the Universe that created them. . . ."
"An exceptional novel; this book introduces many races and characters. Dosadi is an experimental planet, where individuals from different species are forced into a pressure-cooker environment that either kills them or radically expands their capacities (it may remind you of Manhattan - it's even surrounded by a poison river). Will the people of Dosadi be loosed upon the rest of the complacent universe?"
kind regards,
cjs
Dana Gold
01-30-04, 12:27 PM
quote:
"Will the people of Dosadi be loosed upon the rest of the complacent universe?"
They already have....Gemini and Apollo missions to the Moon and now unmanned missions to Mars..the Dosadians should be careful; the Zeta Reticulans, Alpha-Centaurians, and the Cassiopeians do not like war-mongering species and may decide to "quarantine":eek: the Dosadi planet and its inhabitants... for the health and safety of the rest of the Galaxy.;)
"There are no passengers on spaceship earth. We are all crew."
-Marshall McLuhan
Dana Gold
01-30-04, 03:19 PM
Peter,
I sent you a private message also
Dana
Will the people of Dosadi be loosed upon the rest of the complacent universe?"
:D I'll have a look under my bed before I go to sleep.
Anyway, you should read this thread
http://www.bodieslikeours.org/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=258
Dana Gold
01-30-04, 04:06 PM
Don't worry about any Dosadians being under there, Sofie, but you might check in the basement and cellar for Ipsumians:eek: ...just let them know you're a Zeta Reticulan and will quarantine them as well!:D ...
Dana
Dana Gold
01-30-04, 04:26 PM
Hey Sofie, I take back what I said to look in the cellar....instead you better look in the toilet for "them":
sections from Ipsumian website:
http://geocities.com/ipsumius/index4.html
http://geocities.com/ipsumius/index7.html
:rolleyes:
We should rather discuss this in a seperate thread :rolleyes:
Sofie
(going to get herself a cup of milk)
Dana Gold
01-30-04, 04:59 PM
Yes, you're right, this is way off the title thread:rolleyes: ....however, I won't be drinking apple juice for awhile;)
Dana
Dana Gold
01-30-04, 05:20 PM
Peter....I apologize for interrupting your thread with nonsense...got carried away:rolleyes:
Dana
I guess that my last message led to an opening of the gates/bladder so to speak. I am glad that members were able to take relief in my remarks. You were probably dying of suspense. The part of the movie where I reveal my sexual orientation was bound to come up, and I hope you were not holding it in too long in anticipation. Was anyone taking any bets on my orientation? I hope that someone made some money....
Actually, although the remarks are somewhat crude, I am not offended by them. I always think that it is better to flow with the tide, rather than block the tide.
Drinking one's own urine is an age old practice in India, and not esoteric in the least. I remember that the "Economist" magazine had a obiturary of a prominant Indian MP, and they went on at length about the the politician's practice of the art. The article was interesting, The most offensive aspect of the article was that very British attitude of mocking the "natives" and their funny customs.
Thanks to Billie for her insight in reposting some of my remarks. That was a perceptive move that helped the thread move forward. Good counseling skills were at work.
My knowledge of science fiction is limited, but I can see its attraction. For one, there are those cute spacesuits which have a great androgynous attraction. It seems that in the popular imagination, the facination/horror with the idea of the hermaphrodite is something that is always displaced into a mythical realm either in the distant past or the future. Many cultures believe that the primordial human ancestor was a hermaphrodite.
Although, intersex people can be respected in the abstract, we do not get much day to day respect. I looked at the "ipsumius" links mentioned earlier in this thread, and was both amused and horrified that they could worship a primordial hermaphrodite, but throught that all living contemporary intersex people are evil government agents.
It usually comes down to something like that in the end. If people are not horrified upon first meeting me, then they are usually upset by my speech patterns. A friend told me that she thought that I did not look particularly gay, but if I spoke to anyone they would perceive me as being gay within five minutes. When I asked her for further elaboration on what constitues a gay speech pattern, she mentioned that my speech is heavily inflected and ironic. Interesting observations, but I am not sure that such a speech pattern is specifically gay. I remember a linguists professor once mentioning that he thought that I had an "interesting accent" as he politely put it.
As intersex people do not live in the mythical past or future, it is important to develop self respect as a conscious intersex individual. I am talking about the life of a human being. It is not enough to know that one is intersex in a way that shrouds the issue in shame and secrecy. I have always known that I was intersex, but only recently begun to come to terms with the issue. I was discussing being intersexed with a friend recently, and she said that I could not have even had the conversation that we were having a couple of years ago. I agree. I could not have posted what I have posted in this thread a couple of years ago. Thank you for your support.
Peter
Billie Q.
02-01-04, 10:41 AM
Originally posted by ptrinkl108 I was discussing being intersexed with a friend recently, and she said that I could not have even had the conversation that we were having a couple of years ago. I agree. I could not have posted what I have posted in this thread a couple of years ago. Thank you for your support.
Peter, again, a very interesting, thought-provoking post from you. I've learned over time to believe in myself to the point that the "slings and arrows" roll off me.
If someone doesn't like my looks, the way I talk, walk, have sex, or not have sex, or the way I live, that's THEIR problem, not mine.
People will ALWAYS sit in judgment of you: some for good, some for bad. You just deal with it, though it's hard to do sometimes.
I count the little blessings of life: like my friend Betsy, who had the vision and drive to create BLO and this board so you would have a place to not feel alone anymore, and a place where education & elightenment about gender and IS issues can dispel the dark ignorance of the past.
You hear older folks talk a lot of nonsense about IS; referring to them as "morphadites" and such b.s., but young people, by and large, haven't a clue about IS, because it is kept secret. They don't even realize the health problems and struggles of many IS people just to LIVE.
Dana Gold
02-01-04, 02:56 PM
quote:
"They don't even realize the health problems and struggles of many IS people just to LIVE."
In my experience , some people, as Billie said (and not just young people) have no idea what IS means...it is, as one person told me, "uncharted territory"... even though, ironically, there is a virtual encyclopedia of medical information from so-called experts and others on the physical aspects of IS.... and admittedly, only recently, some attention (FINALLY) to life experiences ...BUT mostly because intersexed people (with the help of allies) have intervened to bring it into the public awareness and have made it into more than just a "set of symptoms" with an "unusual medical history"....otherwise, reference to IS would have probably remained to provoke ( to most) only an image of an "anomaly" in a medical "text", a mythological "creature", or worse, a freak of nature. Sadly, some people still do think of those examples just mentioned. The work of past and current IS activism has been and is working to change that limited and mistaken view....and with ongoing efforts (as I, myself, have been a small part of) progress toward change will continue and people will realize that to be IS means much more than just "what's down there" or the clinical aspect of it.......AND I can hardly wait for the TIMES to finally put the articles with Debbie's , Kell's, and Jules's life experiences on the newstands....'it (IS awareness) has been been a long time coming' ........anyway....
Dana
Billie Q.
02-03-04, 12:16 AM
Originally posted by Dana Gold
. . . some people, as Billie said (and not just young people) have no idea what IS means. . .
My point was, that to certain older people, IS people are "morphy-dites," or "morpha-dikes," (and yes, I've really heard people spout that ignorance). Young people's minds seem more open to learning (unlearning?).
Originally posted by ptrinkl108
I don't know if intersex conditions can be considered part of a third sex, but when I hit puberty, I was beset by great gender confusion. I was known to wander around the hallways of my junior high school. I was pulled from class on a regular basis, and had to spend an hour each afternoon sitting in the guidance counselor's office. I was sent at public expense to the local children's hospital and they ran all kinds of psychological tests. After a few weeks of testing, the doctor had a talk with me and said, "We believe that you will be normal". Well, for all the surgical and psychological belief in my possible normality, I do not seem to have turned out that way in the end. [/B]
First and formost A belated Welcome to BLO.
I have been reading your story.
More carefull I am now to reflect on the posts before I respond to them.
May I ask you who wrote the book on "normal"?
Every one of us intersexed or not struggles in some way with the hand that we have been given to us at birth. Our place of birth, our parents, our culture, our teachers, our peers all effect us. You don't have think that just because your past is diffrent then others, That your future needs to be full of unhappness and difficutly. We are all part of one one race, The human race.
You have a choice,
Look at your self as gifted and unqiue, and you have those gifts to use. Or You can talk about your scars, your past and let them define who you are today.
Will people mock you and try to ad to your suffering?
Of course they will. Those people are fools. You should have No bussiness letting their energy feilds in to your own sence of self-importance. Your sence of self-worth comes from identifying all the good things inside you that make you worthy of Glory, vaintity and self- rightousness!
Value yourself! You have the power within yourself to set the "Idea" of what normal is. I too had a tough time in high-school. Your story that I quoted is not to unlike my own storys of high school. My high school years are behind me and I can only look back at my-self- then with pity that I didn't understand what a gited person I really was. I was kept in the dark about that and I suffered because of it.
I understand you pain Peter I really do.
It is it now time to read the stars, grab the rudder and insted of being blown through the endless sea, chart your course and make your life happen they way you want to see it unfold.
This is the support that I give. You an PM anytime you like, I would gladly help you ;)
Thanks Jules for your welcoming words.
I would like to clarify something I wrote about genital surgery and psychological intervention not making me normal. In part, I meant my words to convey the message that the medical notion that cosmetic genital surgery can help a child avoid shame later in life seems to me to be a delusional fantasy on the part of the medical establishment. Once other kids found out about my condition, the tauntings and beatings were merciless. In that sense alone, the attempt to make me "normal" was a great failure. I understand that members of this forum often needed surgery for medically necessary reasons, as Dana related. If it is truely medically necessary for the immediate physical health of the child, I have no objection to surgery.
Beyond that, my sense of normal is pretty inclusive. I do not define normal as being a happy heterosexual person. In some sense I define normal as the goal of "love and work". In that I lack a clear sense of either homosexual or heterosexual orientation, I feel an acute sense of personal failure. I remember once, in the gay support group that I was in, the topic turned to whether my lack of self worth, could be traced back to growing up before Stonewall. While many in the group agreed with the idea, I remember an older guy, who had spent many years as an expatriate in Cairo. arguing that there never was a time before Stonewall in the psychological sense.
I know that arguments from the gay community may not translate well into the intersex community, but I think that the issue of psychological and social space is important. I have mixed feelings about the view that I can improve my psychological condition. If one is oppressed living under oppression, one's mental attitude may take a wide range of forms. One may feel that one is gifted, and actively working to end oppression. One many feel a sense of hopelessness, as I often do. The most important issue is the elimination of oppression, which I believe transcends the realm of the individual psyche. Ever since Fanz Fanon published his book "Wretched Of The Earth" about fifty years ago, the model of psychological empowerment has predominated. I can see the attractiveness of the model, but I also believe that it has its limitations.
But hey, there is a bright side. Even with my psychological limitations, I can still make a donation towards supporting the ongoing operation of this forum.
I know that I have used the term "condition" in a couple of my posts, in quotation marks, because that is what my mom always called it when I was growing up. We never used the term "intersex" or "hermaphrodite" around my house. I don't like the term "condition", and I only use it for historical purposes. I think the reason that I heard the term condition so often is that my parents kept changing stories about why I had my genital scars.
I have heard the following:
1) That I was born with a "vaginal cleft", but lacked internal female organs.
2) That my testicles were trapped inside my body, and that surgery was done to free them.
3) That surgery was done because of my deformed hip.
My favorite theory, from a non-family source, was that I was born a Siamese Twin joined at the crotch with my twin. So with plenty of mis-information and mis-direction flying around, I guess that the term "condition" was the easiest to use when my secret and shameful treatment came up. My doctor at my HMO recently examined my scars and politely said that I had a developmental problem, and since he probably only had minimal training on intersex in medical school, he could not say more. Just this last weekend, I had a talk about intersex with my parents, and they were as evasive as ever.
I am not too crazy about the term "intersex" either. I like the terms hermaphrodite and "herm pride" Even if incorrect, they have a certain ring to them.
Peter
Dana Gold
02-27-04, 12:23 PM
quote: "Just this last weekend, I had a talk about intersex with my parents, and they were as evasive as ever. "
It's weird how defensive parents are, EVEN when you ask them specific questions alluding to the fact that YOU know...I went through the same thing with my mother..I've given up trying to get anything more. It breaks my heart, though, and leaves me lying awake at nights ruminationg over it all.
I don't mind the word intersex so much, BUT when I tell some other people about it, they think it to mean some kind of gayness, transsexual, or "what's that!?"
Once, I said medical condition...the answer: "OH, I'm sorry to hear that,but why do you want to change back after they fixed you?""...Before I transitioned, one person understood the word hermaphrodite, but asked me " Yeah, but you like girls don't you?" (i.e. "are you homosexual?"):rolleyes: :rolleyes:
But, SOME have understood, because they told me they read about it or seen the Discover channel presentation etc.:)
It's all so frustrating sometime ; If you get a positive reply, you feel good....then you get a negative reply and you feel down.
And that's why I advocate a strong sense of self. For to rely upon others for self-affirmation IS a downer and will reduce self-esteem ....especially when it comes to SOME parents....sad, but true.
Anyway, take care.
Dana :)
After reading a Buddhist sutra, I was interested in finding out what the Thirty Two Marks of the Buddha were. Here is a bit of information that intersex people might find interesting:
One of the marks:
"Lord Buddha's male organ is hidden".
I feel better knowing that atypical genitalia are not aways seen as a sign of inferiority and shame.
Peter
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