trust

[Glenn]

I pulled this into a new thread since it has little to do with the surgery discussion.

Peter; in another thread you said:

In talking about distrust, I think that the Glenn factor must be mentioned. In a recent post, I was gently trying to point out to Glenn that there did not seem to be the distrust amoung men and women that he was sighing about. Once, years ago, a guy I knew loudly sighed about the difference between men and women in a restaurant where me and a few friends were dining. All of the women in the restaurant within hearing distance cracked up scornfully. They could hardly believe their ears. Who can blame them? So, when Glenn sighed about the difference between men and women, I just wanted to get out of the room, so to speak.
I also felt that Glenn was complaining about lesbian members of this forum and the social space that they occupy. We can have a futher discussion about that at another time. I did notice with some interest that when Glenn posted his past mesage about his father-in law's health condition, that many people, whom I presume were of different genders and sexual orientations all offered words of encouragement and support. So, what happened when Betsy posted her message about her mom's condition? Glenn posted that "this really sucks". Does Glenn really believe that his actions contribute to building trust between him and others who posted messages of encouragement and support for Betsy?
My trust level is pretty low at this point, but I figure that most members of this forum want an open discussion of intersex issues.

Several issues in here, let's see if I can respond to them.

1. Differences between men and women.
I think you're reading something into my message which wasn't intended. I don't understand what you thought sighing implied - I meant it as expressing frustration over people exaggerating the differences between men and women, in order to justify disliking or distrusting the opposite sex. Perhaps you haven't seen it much, Peter, but that just makes you fortunate.

2. Complaining about lesbians?
I have no idea where you got this from.

3. Support for Betsy
As you almost mentioned, my father-in law died very recently (he didn't have a 'health condition,' let's be honest). As a result, I've been helping to hold my wife and her two brothers together through the grief process.

One of the things we found most annoying was the enormous number of platitudes which one hears under these circumstances - 'he's in a better place now', 'it's all for the better', 'it must have been god's will', and so on. And the favorite, "I'm so sorry." This isn't saying anything against what was posted here - I know your hearts are all in the right place, and your wishes are very sincere.

Through my (perhaps overly blunt) message I was trying to affirm that it's okay to state the really obvious. It doesn't matter how old they were, or how sick they had been, or anything else...it still really sucks when a loved one dies!!!

And as a matter of fact, I deliberately wouldn't have been so blunt if I hadn't built trust with Betsy and the others here, because I know it's okay to be honest with each other. I'm sorry if it offended you (or anyone else). I think that people who are grieving need the chance to vent and state the painfully obvious just as much as anyone else. By being blunt I was trying to reaffirm Betsy's license to do that too, and not just smile and pretend everything's okay.

4. Open discussion of intersex issues
Absolutely! Sometimes other issues come up, though, and it's okay to discuss them too. :)

Glenn

[Billie Q.]

Glenn,
I appreciate your very thoughtful reply, and at the same time, Peter's "misreading" of some statements.

I tend to do that, too (i.e. read a little more into something than is actually intended) especially on message boards.

I think e-mail sucks sometimes, because so often, we don't come across the way we really are.

You have to go the extra mile in this medium (adding smilies, explaining yourself to death) to avoid being misconstrued. Even with all that, it still happens.

That sucks. :)

[Dana Gold]

Gee, well for myself, in case anybody might construe to think I don't/didn't respond to people's loss of loved ones , especially Betsy, I sent her a private message (with cyber flowers).....with all my rants here at BLO, I sometimes worry that I might be misunderstood, and have apologized (with private msgs) to whom I might have come across as rude, or send priv msgs with jokes and stuff to try to help cheer things up............and as Billie pointed out about smilies.......they do have value in that some emotion is carried into the email language......I wish we had more, but then, as I've found out, there's a limit as to how many one can use....probably just as well.....I would "flood" my posts with them:p .....this little smilie denotes "stick-out-tongue" but to me it always seemed to be a "little chuckle".................anyway.....

[Glenn]

yeah, I tell my students about how much of in-person communication consists of tone, inflection, body language, eye contact, and so on, but all of that is missing from a forum such as this. Okay, the smilies are still fun. :D

Glenn

[Dana Gold]

Yes!!, let's hear it for the Smilies:cool: :p :) !!

Dana;) :D

[Peter]

Hi Glenn,

I am glad that you made my comments and your responses into a new thread. In fact you quoted so much of my comments, that it makes sense to delete my original post, and post a note in the start of this thread that you quoted me almost in my entirety. I agree that the "Why surgery?" thread is best left to that topic, or closely related personal sharings of experiences.

So, we have my comments and your response. I don't really have much to add at this point, and I don't want to start a flame. In passing, I would caution against the conclusion that I "mis-read" your postings. A strong trend in current literary theory holds that authors are in some sense responsible for the "mis-readings" of texts they write. I would be curious if any member knows of any articles relating the topic of "mis-reading" to gender theory. That would make a good read.

I appreciate your posting relating your own experiences of having repeated surgeries on your leg.


Peter

[Billie Q.]

Originally posted by ptrinkl108
In passing, I would caution against the conclusion that I "mis-read" your postings.

Yes, Peter you are right, and I apologize for assuming you did so.

[Betsy]

After being distracted the past few days, I'm kind of trying to figure out where the discord arose.

I think everyone needs to know about a new groundrule I have instituted, effective immediately. The only person allowed to post about what I may or may not feel or experience at any given moment is me. It does suck that I lost my mom, and I am also very sorry I lost my mom. Reading about perceived levels of sincereness is really disconcerting to me.

I also get a bit uncomfortable when people put their IS experience into a comparative type of realm. I personally think each of our experiences---past, present, and future---are worthy of being told, and discussed, and shared. That's why the site is here. For so much of our lives, we were told we must never share the secret of our bodies with anyone; doing so now serves to reclaim them and indeed, ourselves.

But as has been pointed out, sometimes in the sterile world of the internet and email, we lose that key aspect of seeing and hearing inflection. In another forum I participate in (a geek forum) someone misinterpreted something I posted and sent me a PM asking if I really meant "that". It was a bit of humor that didn't come across as it should've. Rather than confronting it publicly, it was done privately and quickly "explained" before further misunderstanding could occur.

I treasure everyone's participation here, and hate to see people leave because they feel they aren't being "understood" or for any other reasons. But people do leave for any in a myriad of reasons, and new people join our community. It makes for a great hot tub type of conversation. Sometimes we agree, sometimes we don't--doesn't matter. If you think about it, we are recording in history (and for eternity for that matter) a pretty unique intersex experience for all the world to read and experience with us.

Cheers,
Betsy

[Peter]

Okay. Okay. I have been trying to hold this in for a couple of days, but I can't keep it secret anymore. I hate smiley faces. No, I don't really hate smiley faces, it's just that I personally find them, well .... so confusing. I guess that part of my problem is that my Gender Identity Disorder (self diagnosed through reading the Internet) seems to be so severe that I am often confused as to what messages a smiley face is supposed to be sending. Is it possible to use a smiley face in an ironic fashion? What I found interesting about some of Billie's recent posts, is that I though that he was using smiley faces in an ironic fashion. Also, I am not too up to date on all the other on-line abreviations. I was in a on-line chat room, thinking that I was making some progress, because I though that "LOL" stood for "lots of love", and only found out later, to my horror, that "LOL" stands for "laughing out loud."

I know that I have not been in one of Glenn's classes where he teaches his students about the importance of the non-verbal aspects of communication. But, boy Glenn, that is sure some "speech act" to my ignorant ears.

Glenn, I am sorry to hear that you are often party to conversations about the differences between men and women used to further justify denying opportunities to women. I am surprised that in this county, at this time, you are party to such conversations on a regular basis. If in your academic or other work circles, you are party to such conversations, I recommend that you take notes, and contact your state's Equal Employment Opportunity Board or take other appropriate action. If it is often occuring in your personal circles, I would recommend trying to educate your friends on your feelings about the issue, and that failing, get some new friends.

I am trying to speak my mind in a constructive way. If you feel that my comments are not constructive, please let me know. Thanks.


Peter

[Billie Q.]

Originally posted by ptrinkl108
I am often confused as to what messages a smiley face is supposed to be sending. Is it possible to use a smiley face in an ironic fashion? What I found interesting about some of Billie's recent posts, is that I though that he was using smiley faces in an ironic fashion.

Hi Peter,
Another word for the "smiley faces, " and what I believe is a more accurate description is "emoticon." They are meant to convey emotion (or irony, perhaps).

Some people are very good at conveying "tone" and "emotion" through e-mail; I do my best.

However, I do consistently use the emoticons in a straight-forward fashion. The smiley face means, "this is a happy discussion, not an argument," the confused face means simply "I don't get it."

[Peter]

I have been thinking over how one builds trust. In looking at my actions over the last few weeks I am sorry that I got into a confrontation with Glenn. Although I do not feel that what I have said was wrong, I feel that I was acting badly in some ways.

I remember once a famous anthropologist discribed how when two British educated professors meet, they often go through a whole ritual of sniffing each other out like two dogs: "Oxford or Cambride?" etc. etc. I feel like I have acted like a dog that the anthropologist was describing.

I am not saying that Glenn wanted any part of the ritual, and I feel his starting up this thread was generous.

[Glenn]

sometimes we all get grumpy.