View Full Version : the Next IT revolution?
cougar9q
02-01-04, 07:31 PM
Quite recently within the past two months, I have picked up books that were written by transexuals describing their issues alongside with ours. In those books, the authors were able to describe the similar struggles that we [intersexuals] share with them...but they did time and time again, failed to differentiate the difference between the two. My point is that why shouldn't we join them with fighting for our legal and social rights? I have read in other threads about the arguement whether we should join our forces with the GLBT community to form a glbtI "team." I am interested in feedback, and I am merely interested in ideas....Meaning I am not looking for definite answers. Here it is I am seeking creative opinions.....Oh yeah one last thing, can anyone give me any names of books about intersexuals written by intersexuals?
Thanx,
Monica [cougar9q]
cougar9q
02-01-04, 07:34 PM
I am apologizing now for misspelling transsexual as "transexual."
I am such a horrible speller....
Thanx for you Patience,
Monica
Billie Q.
02-01-04, 07:48 PM
This is an interesting post. I thought of posting a poll stating this very question: should IS be the "I" in GLBTI?
This is the only one I can think of just now.
Dipl.-Psych. Angelika Bock
Leben mit dem Ullrich-Turner-Syndrom (german)
http://www.reinhardt-verlag.de/db/detail.cfm?tnr=4805
There are some personal stories and a few radio-programmes on the web, I'll mail you the URLs if you're interested.
Sofie
Two good books to read are:
Intersex and Identiy: The Contested Self. Preves, Sharon. Rutgers University Press 2003
Intersex in the Age of Ethics. Dreger, Alice. University Publishing Group 1999.
Betsy
Monica,
"Transexual" is a perfectly acceptable spelling for "transsexual". It is Rikki Wilchins' variation and s/he uses it all the time.
:)
Dana Gold
02-02-04, 12:29 PM
Being both IS and TS I have thought over the inclusion of I into GLBT ,for an alliance, and have come to this conclusion, based upon my own experience within each of those communities:
If 'I' is ever added to GLBT, then the differences between T and IS (and where IS will stand in the GLBT) must be discussed openly, possibly even presented in an Intersex Primer....with the following example I wish to state the reason for this is cautionary measure: a lot of T folk don't like being part of GLB (this is feedback I got from my T support group), and feel that they were cheated by the fact that recent efforts to include gender identity in federal non-discrimination policy was stymied by some GLB activists and congressman, who held to the view that including T in such policy would make it more difficult to pass such a law...i.e. leave T out and the bill would be passed much easier...which it WAS!! Might a similar thing occur when IS is added...another thing: .presently an intersexed person (for those of us who do) would "transition" and be stuck under the Harry Benjamin SOC protocol?? Meaning T protocol is being applied to IS matters (as GLB protocol were applied to T in the past)...this cannot happen! It is a common opinion within the T community (at least within my support group) that T has more in common with I than GLB., and they( T ) feel uncomfortable about it because the life and issues of T is vastly different than of GLB BUT : T has little political power without GLB allies.
I speak for myself when I say that GLB and T and IS can be allies in the cause for universal rights and some social issues, but (again) some understanding should be made UP FRONT about unique differences amongst the various S's and IS, especially about the two instances I gave earlier above. Caution should be taken....what's in store for IS?...the likihood of IS issues being "diluted" by perceptions that we are in GLBT camp...but who would think that way?...most likely the non-GLBT people (who would/do think that way, already) and some who disagree IS should be there.. Are our efforts going to be subject to the opinion/control of the larger group (GLBT)....i.e..how we should demonstrate or present our issues?
Are we to become the "juniors" of the group...I don't think so. IS comes in with equal footing and equal decision-making powers.
It's like a battle plan....I don't think that we should join the "umbrella" without clear and upfront understanding as to where the I does stand within the group...i.e. that not all IS issues can be addressed by the GLBTI organization, since IS, just as T issues were in the past not accurately represented by GLB IS would essentially be the minority, as T used to be in the past point in case:... the T community might have made a mistake when it allowed themselves to be represented by GLB in major decision-making processes and "talked about" in newspapers and journals....that cannot happen with IS, and it must be made abundantly clear to the "powers-that-be" within the GLBT community.....allies, yes, puppets, no....if major protocol is being going to be advanced then it should be a "round-table" discussion. Policy making must be equally shared...it would not be fair or democratic for any of the S's within the umbrella to speak on behalf of or relegate decisons based upon their understanding of or "for" other S's... I must say one thing, though, and it is a plus...some GLBT are beginning to actively support IS issues, and here within the UC campus GLBT and my Buddhist GLBT group people are willing to be open-minded to at least know that a difference between IS and TS do exist (but the lines get blurred with a transitioning IS and that person is then drawn into the T group, as what happens with me, even within the medical community) It seems, then, the major reason for alliance is that, well, s/w political : the "non S's" are the majority and hold the national and state policy-making wheel, as well as the "current" knowledge which dictates what our lives are about (OR what they think it should be about.) and the well-known discriminatory outlooks/actions, so for greater protection and socio-political inclusion into mainstream society...which might or might not have relevance to medical issues or individual life experiences.
....So a bit of history lesson....this country started out with separate states to form a union (analogy GLB, then T) a federal governing group REPRESENTED by different states (analogy each of the S's), but each state has the authority and right to make it's own decision on behalf of members of that state.(community)..
Another thought: would TS "secede" from the GLB Union to form a new TI Union....or develop into a "closer ally" of IS within the GLB......the GLB have after all become quite "dominant" with the umbrella...T is "catching up"...IS = the new state...like Hawaii (very different from the "mainland")....the weaker "partner"...or does GLBTI stay as a Union and things to be "re-balanced"...where would the "checks and balances be with such a formation....where are they now??
Democracy at work... Alliances/Unions , yet individual autonomy.......Can it be done here??
I like Dana's idea of an Intersex Primer. I have been thinking that it would be great if there was a book that I have titled in my imagination: "Our Bodies, Our Intersex Selves".
I also think that our movement needs a theater company, and I understand, from surfing the Internet, that intersex theater is alive and growing.
Peter
Dana Gold
02-02-04, 04:34 PM
A pragmatic approach by Emi Koyama with good points in the article copied/pasted below:
http://www.ipdx.org/articles/lgbti.html
PS: Inre the thread start about the next IT revolution....let's say the next TI one...sounds better;)
Dana
Dana Gold
02-02-04, 05:48 PM
I spoke in the very general sense in the post about IS/GLBT.( the GLBTI as a monopoly conglomerate )..obviously there are TS organizations that understand and acknowledge the difference/similarity issue, just as there are GLB....but this is due to the efforts of IS activism and visibilty and dialogue between groups, however, as the eternal cynic that I am I always have my " antennae" out to sense negative things that may occur based upon past history....for myself: I prefer to educate/make aware people about IS (and TS from an IS point of view) through my experience and what I know and have learned about from others' experiences as being intersexed...and talking about it within the GLBT and non-GLBT community, without being "one of their members".....like Andi,(in his sign-off phrase) I am an individual, a participant within the activities ....a visitor with something to say....
Dana
The main diffence between is GLB and T with intersex is this:
GBL have a choice about there partners, even if they don't have a choice in the biologcal reasons for wanting to have non-hertosexual relationships.
Transexuals, while I understand the issues look alike: make a choice if they change there hormones and genderbend.
Yes the choice helps then to feel "themselves" But it is still a choice to reject your born sex and change gender. If transgendering ment death, many could still live in the bodys they were born with as many do who find girlfriends or boyfriends and don't change themselves because ther partners would no longer find then sexualy attractive as the oppisite sex.
Intersex is choiceless!! We can't control how our bodys look at birth. We are biologicaly diffrent from the start, nobody can choose it for us, We can't chose it for ourselves.
Some intersex people trasgender from one sex to another, that is a choice.
Not all intersex people however reject the gender that is given to them.
You can be intersexed but not trasgendered.
You can be trangended but not intersexed.
You can be intersexed and trasgendered.
Can a intersexual be a Lesbain, or a Homosexual, or a Hetrosexual? That is the question of the week.
Because intersexuals blur the lines between male and female in a diffrent way then other people might think, or be ready to think, I think it is better if they are not under the same umbrella. But we should support each other indeed! `
Can we share our storys and support each other, of course. Can we fight for equal right togeather? Well, that is very touchy because I don't want to be in the same class as everybody else. They are two seprate issues even when someone shares them both.
Many of the issues look alike when one looks quickly without doing much research but one is pysicaly biological and the other is pyscological, even if you argue that the biological, pyscoligical reasons for trasngendering are in the mind. (whew!)
Intersex is choiceless!! We can't control how our bodys look at birth. We are biologicaly diffrent from the start, nobody can choose it for us, We can't chose it for ourselves.
And everybody else can???
:confused:
Billie Q.
02-03-04, 08:41 PM
Originally posted by Jules
Many of the issues look alike when one looks quickly without doing much research but one is p[h]ysical[l]y biological and the other is pysc[h]ological, even if you argue that the biological, pysc[h]oligical reasons for trasngendering are in the mind. (whew!)
Well now, you've just stirred a little hornet's nest!
This statement goes to the very heart of the argument of whether Homosexuality should be lumped together with Atypical Genitialia and/or Gender Identity.
The question of "Is it a choice?" (and I won't share where I stand on this) conerning Homosexuality always gets people talking -- and arguing.
Originally posted by uriela
And everybody else can???
:confused:
No need to be confused, yes people do make choices. A unhappy couple may stay togeather untill the children are old enough to take care of themselves: thats a choice
A trasgendered person may wait untill there parents are deceased to change there sex because they are sympathetic to the parents ability to understand them: That is a choice.
Your whole life one way or another is the sum of all your choices in light of things that we can't control.
A person who has been opressed by their family, coworkers,and people can choose to pick ther stuff up and move to a place that is less homophobic and more in tune to their needs: that still is a choice.
It is not a bad thing to take full resposibility for who and what you become, by looking at the type of choices you make in life.
Being happy is a choice. If that means surgery, trasgendering, or moving to a place that fits your needs. We make the choice. It is our life. Yes, it is true that biological things give us wants and needs that we have trouble controling or even have trouble understanding.
Mind over matter, We can still choose to go against our biolgical needs, if thats what we need to do at that time to survive: It is still our choice.
Having blue eyes: not our choice
being Born a cancer or Leo: Not our choice
Being intersexed: same thing, it has nothing to do with choice.
but almost everything eles, does had to do with choice.
We can overcome anything we set our minds too, We just have to choose to do it.
P.s Thanks for fixing my terrible spelling Billy;)
Yup, I could have waited until my father was dead too before I started transition and by that time I would have been a basket case you wouldn't believe, as if I wasn't already. But, quite frankly everything would have been much better all around if I had started long long ago, because one happy person makes one whale of a difference to a mostly unhappy world.
I don't think I had any other real choice, because if you don't choose your own happiness you are choosing your own unhappiness. You can make nature/nuture arguments until you are blue in the face about homosexuality and transexuality but in the long run it just doesn't make any difference when it comes to choices.
People argue back and forth about it. Mainly whether they are going to accept something that just is. And then it's okay one day and then it's not and then it can be fixed, without concern about the persons who really do live it.
I'm naturally the way I am. And I'm transsexual. I may also be somewhat intersexed and I have destroyed some of the evidence, just as the evidence may have been destroyed when I was an infant. I'm not "normal", but I am glad I am not in "normal" people's shoes. They wouldn't fit.
Originally posted by uriela
I don't think I had any other real choice, because if you don't choose your own happiness you are choosing your own unhappiness. You can make nature/nuture arguments until you are blue in the face about homosexuality and transexuality but in the long run it just doesn't make any difference when it comes to choices.
I never said There was anything wrong with being TG or being homosexual
I understand the feelings you have over all about nature/nuture.
Some people control there feelings well.
Other people are controled by there feelings and feel helpless and overpowered by them.
I hav said in past posts, that No one can ever "be" their feelings. We pass though our feelings like rooms in a house.
If someone feels hopelessly stuck with a type of feeling help is out there. It helps to be able to see yourself from the outside in
It takes all kinds of people to make this world go around, I pass judgement on no one.
But please don't suggest to me that people are powerless over their choices.
I take pride in the fact that I make much better choices in my life now then I ever did and that has made the biggest diffrence over all in the quality of my life and happiness. I will never go back to thinking that someone else controls my future
Kindly Jules
Dana Gold
02-04-04, 01:41 PM
Yes, I agree that one can always make choices. But I should pose these questions now: what happens if there is opposition to our choices? Do we choose not to fight for our own sense of self, for fear of dreadful consequences? And is that really a choice?... or is it coercion?
The point I am trying to make is that sometimes the choices are limited. And the choices we are presented with are not really of our own choosing. Prosaic examples: 1. election time and the candidates.
2. doctor office visit: standard treatment protocol are in opposition to what you feel is best treatment..i.e. treatment is denied
Perhaps I am being too simplistic. We live in a controlled society. Not all choices are open. And sometimes choices are made for us, regardless of the choices we wish to make.
Lastly I want to apologize for my long, confusing, run-together posts. I have not been feeling well as of recently, "fighting the (authoritarian) world " you might say ( a choice with negative health consequences). It is related to my anxiety-panic "disorder". Yesterday, after seeing my PCP and fighting for my medical benefits (to see endo and recommended bone-density and mammogram tests, which were once again denied.....and even if I paid my own money, I cannot get mammogram because "they" don't do it for "men"), I finally "collapsed" and spent the rest of the day in bed, unfortunately "choosing" not to attend a prior commitment..I am back to work only because I have no more sick or vacation time, despite feeling tired and weak. Therefore I am making the choice to "take it easy", as it is said...to do otherwise "runs me down" It is hard to make choices, when one's life is controlled by "accepted and traditional society". Choices come with costs, some more "expensive" than others.
cougar9q
02-04-04, 03:16 PM
Ditto about the controlling....accepted and traditional society
cougar9q
02-04-04, 03:17 PM
last quote was by Dana Gold.............
I guess this thread is partly a continuation of the tread about including the I in GLBT. My own opinion is that GLBTI should be welcomed. It would have great educational benefits. Also, from reading Jim's old posts, I agree that the funding aspects of such an alliance should not be ignored.
It is great that TIME magazine will be running a feature on intersexuality and our issues. I strongly suspect that the appearance of such an article is partially the result of behind the scenes work by some of our allies in high places in the publishing industry. It don't have direct evidence for this, but given the highly political nature of the publishing industry it would not surprise me.
For many years, I was a small part of the anti-pyschiatry movement in this country. A major setback for the movement was that it was not able to form a strong alliance with the GLB movement. Despite having really smart women leading the movement, and really good ideas, it was in many ways marginalized. To me, its high points were the regular publication of the magazine "Madness Network News", and getting a ballot measure passed in a major city banning the use of electro-shock therapy in the city.
I think that alliances are extremely important, and unless I hear a convincing argument against such an alliance, I will continue to strongly support the GLBTI alliance. That there is serious talk of GLBTI shows how much progress has been made from the days when intersex issues were discussed in hushed tones, and the best that one might expect to find was a sympathetic private therapist associated with a local gay counseling center.
Peter
cougar9q
02-04-04, 03:41 PM
So....... we have identified some of the groups of people that we can "ally" with, now it's for us to build our army. What does that mean? Before we start to demand our rights, whether in our "team", or with the combination of our's with the others, we need to create our identity. I know that that didn't make any sense, but what I am trying to say is that if we are going to fight on our own or with the help of others, we have to know who "we" are and what we want. I know that that sounds are nice and fluffy, and is visual, but we really need to take some action.
I don't know what we need to do. It is not easy to take what is yours when the world say's that it's not. It is not easy to demand your rights when your existence isn't acknowledged. We need symbols..... A flag that hints about how important and diverse we are. Not a rainbow, in my opinion, but something that will closely reflect our identities, struggles, and needs......
I am alone.
Is that who we are? So many of us choose to believe that. I did chose to believe that too. I do not want anyone of us to ever feel that. We need to be out there in the world not only for our sakes, but also for those that do not have the information, for those that do not know that they are intersexed. Every person that is intersexed has the right to know who they are, and must know that they are not alone, and that there is support out there. We are NEVER alone. I wish I could do something. For many of us it is easy to "hide." That is why it is difficult to identify our fellow "siblings" they are "hiding" and know it, or don't know that they are "hiding." I am not saying that we should all wear T-shirts that say: "Hey world I am intersexed." It is all about balance. I have more thoughts, but not enough time, I will post again. But for the mean time, what does everyone else think?
*Monica*
A rather valid point Dana. I think many people like to believe in the concept of choice because it gives them a feeling of control. To use your election example, it basically down to the decision of "Do I vote for this crooked bastard or this other crooked bastard? (Personally when it comes to politics I don't trust anyone who actually wants the job)
You medical example is all too true. Either you take what they give you (and they charge what they want) or you can insist on a treatment you like & they tell you to get out of their office & drop dead.
I could continue, but that would get too political & all that ever does is get me all wound up. So I'll leave well enough alone.
Andi
Dana Gold
02-04-04, 05:53 PM
As with most of our perceived reality, the choice we talk about is perhaps also a societal construct. Real choice implies freedom and the individual's right as a human being to select the course in life which is in that individual' best interests. Where there is no (or limited) freedom, choice merely equates to pre-chosen available options (by others) that may (in many cases) have no relevance to the individual's personal needs as a human being. The available choices in such a case have been deliberately fashioned to maintain conformity to the "construct". While there has been s/w more freedom as related to "choice" of gender and sexual identity, the acknowledgement by many of the validity of such being "real" is forever being questioned. Is it really a choice to be who you feel you are? Is being hungry a choice? Or should such be regarded as a mere desire? Is it really a choice when hunger is present and the only options on the "menu" are either what someone else decides is "the best for you" or just plain crap?
"Choice has always been a privilege of those who could afford to pay for it."
-Ellen Frankfort
Dana Gold
02-04-04, 08:08 PM
I'm sorry for getting off track from original thread of GLBTI issue...I'm all screwed up:confused: today
Billie Q.
02-04-04, 09:03 PM
Originally posted by ptrinkl108
For many years, I was a small part of the anti-pyschiatry movement in this country. A major setback for the movement was that it was not able to form a strong alliance with the GLB movement. Despite having really smart women leading the movement, and really good ideas, it was in many ways marginalized.
It was marginalized precisely because it had "really smart women leading the movement." "You've come a long way, baby?" I wish...
Yes, this is off-topic and not about IS. I don't apologize for that.
An interesting point. In discussing the position of the anti-psychiatry movement with a friend who was a leader of the anti-psychiatry movement, she always felt that the gay community could not welcome anti-psychiatry because at that time in history the gay movement was fighting to gain acceptence in the mainsteam. In the drive towards social acceptence, some people wanted to push away radical elements who could be seen as not helping in this drive. In my own life, I have sometimes felt this. Billie, I don't think your message is off-topic in any way. If any of this makes sense to anyone, please post your thoughts.
Peter
cougar9q
02-04-04, 11:35 PM
yeah... it makes sense, yet what some people have missed was not that the subject was "glbti" issues, it is concerned with the question whether we [intersexuals] and transsexuals should unite to fight for our rights. I guess that it could be confused with the "glbti" issue because it was spoken of in the past couple of threads. What I have noticed is that no one has even touched the post reply that I wrote before this one: I guess you could call it a "prepost reply?" Anyway....I would like some feedback of about what I wrote last.............And I had more to say but now my eyelids are starting to close so, I will talk to you later.
[Monica]
I have re-read your posts. You do bring up interesting issues of social space, and how IS people can avoid feeling alone. Before coming to this forum, I contacted the ISNA about possible IS support groups near where I live. I got a reply from a member of the board of directors saying that the only support groups available in my area, were for parents and friends of people with Turner's condition. I sent back an impish note saying that I was sorry to hear that there was only a group for "parents and friends" but not intersex people.
I know that there is planning going on for an Intersex Awareness Day sometime later this year. As you say, there are people who would not feel comfortable wearing a T-Shirt saying "I am Intersexed". However, perhaps in conjunction with the Awareness day, there could be regional meetings/workshops where IS people can meet to discuss IS issues. One of those issues could be the relationship between the IS community and the Trans community that you brought up earlier in this thread.
Peter
<rant on>
It's a coming out process and there are stages that occur before one usually finds the strength to stand up and say "me too". Sharon Preves' book, "Intersex and Identity: The Contested Self" explores this issue at length. I highly recommend reading it, although it does get a bit "heavy" and close to home at times. I've posted before on this and say it often: I would love to see 10,000 or more intersex people gathered on the steps of the US Capital.
Unfortunately, the shame and secrecy that was so successfully drilled into us for being born "different" is hard to overcome. It's safe sitting behind our computer screens---it's hard getting out there and working for awareness and change. But from experience, I can attest that it gets easier and easier each time you do it.
I don't think we need to limit ourselves either by trying to ally with only specific groups...yes, the trans community as a whole are wonderful allies. The GLBT community is trying to be, but still floundering in trying to figure how --of even if-- we fit in. However, there are allies to be found most everywhere but they too need to be educated. Find a community you are comfortable with and ask them if they would like to be educated. There are too few people out there doing it and frankly, we could use your help.
Hopefully Jules won't get mad at me for using her as an example. When she first joined this community, I don't think she was speaking out much about her own story. Over the course of time she found the strength to speak out, appear in the local news, and coming soon (hopefully) Time Magazine.
Tell 5 people you know or run into about intersex issues---5 people counteracts the 5 children a day undergoing intersex genital mutilation. if you are not comfortable "coming out as IS" doing it, then don't (but it would be better if you did because it makes it real personal for those listening). The beauty of IS is we don't wear our genitals and phenotype on our foreheads. No one will know for sure unless you tell them, but you need to get past any fears of association by contact.
There is room at the table for all of us...we just need to pull up the seat to it ourselves.
If you are interested in speaking out, or doing something else to educate the masses, let me know and we will work together to find something for you to do (but please let me know what you can do rather than asking me for something to do because I'm kind of crummy at that, but I know how to say yes! to a good idea really well).
Some of things I hope Bodies will be focusing on in the upcoming months:
Education in relation to the proposed constitutional marriage amendment being kicked around in regards to how they will define male and female. We have to be careful as a non-profit organization not to lobby against it but we can make sure that IS people don't get screwed because of some goofball definition.
The intersex day of awareness that Peter mentioned, which we hope will also lead to more community building locally. Show a movie, hold a vigil, if you were subjected to IGM, wear tape on your mouth for the day to graphically illustrate how you didn't have a voice when the choice for surgery was made for you---the possibilities are endless. We are still working on a date but suggestions have been coming in favoring early October so now is the time to jump into the mix.
Expanding our tell5! program with some new and redesigned handouts.
Possibly (because the tech issues will be a challenge for me) a Get Out the Vote campaign.
I'm in the process of talking to geeks about converting the entire site over to PHP so things like that can happen. Is that you?
More "in your face" activism. We had good reaction to our Hartford activities (which culminated yesterday with Janet Green doing a presentation at CCMC for medical residents). I'd love to see more of that kind of stuff.
These are in no way a definitive "wanna-do' list, so feel free to add your own in.
Oh...and whenever I get on this particular rant, I would be remiss in reminding that even if you don't want to or can't "come out", you can still help the mission by making a donation to ensure that those who are willing are able to do it. A few folks here have been really generous in making sure the site stays up by making sure our hosting bill is paid and the lights are kept on but additional support is needed if more work is to be accomplished. Are you good at fundraising? Do you have special skills like accounting, fundraising, artistic, techie, or legal? That type of help is always needed. Are in interested in being on the board of directors here at Bodies? That too is a possibility---let's talk.
<rant off>
Betsy
Billie Q.
02-05-04, 07:28 AM
quote by Monica:
" I don't know what we need to do. It is not easy to take what is yours when the world say's that it's not. It is not easy to demand your rights when your existence isn't acknowledged.'
No it isn't, easy. But then, nothing worth achieving ever is. Just take what's yours, with no apologies. Live free, live open, and live loud, when the need arises.
Cry, laugh, teach, talk, share. Walk through this life with your head held high. I am no better than you, and you are no better than me. We can only try to "walk a mile " in one another's shoes. Through walking the other path comes understanding.
Understanding (teaching and learning) is key, I think.
Dana Gold
02-05-04, 12:41 PM
I, for one, believe that to "join forces" with TS as allies would be beneficial in that many of the "similarities" involve issues with the medical community. Case in point: Harry Benjamin SOC, modification of the protocol to include intersexed people who transition. The issue of "same-sex" (gay) marriage does not consider at all the dilemma faced by TS and IS people if they wish to marry. The alliance would provide an opportunity to enlighten each parties of the differences from IS and TS that is so often discussed...understanding is difficult without meaningful dialogue....I don't think that autonomy and identity of IS would necessarily have to be compromised. I used the analogy of a democratic republic with sovereign states: both joined for common good without giving up the right "to govern the individual state"..a Big Brother Effect would be less likely with a TI "union" (please not IT)....and Peter makes a good point...there are no IS support grps within the community, but there are IS within TS support grps because of that lack. And Betsy has acknowledged that TS have been wonderful allies...this particular alliance makes more sense to me than GLBTI. That has become almost a culture centered around gay issues, some TS issues are now inclusive, but IS exists only as a letter in the acronym in most cases. Being IS myself, I don't like being regarded as a "trannie". My opinion then is that the possibilty exists for a mutually beneficial cooperative endeavor without IS being "swallowed up" by TS, as long as (like Betsy and Monica mentioned) we as IS hold our own and promote IS awareness. The IS community (is there really one?) needs allies to gain a foothold in the effort to promote continuing change within the political and medical communities, as well as the average John and Jane Doe in society. The TS community has 'established' resources to effect that change., both for TS and IS both.
Okay, so, for those that disagree, shoot me now... but my sentiment remains the same.
cougar9q
02-05-04, 03:22 PM
Dana,
"T I" it is....
That's is interesting that you made the analogy that we should all be equal states in a union. I remember that you wrote that before. I think that it was yesterday, when I thought to myself that we are a "people without a nation." ..............Ideas, ideas, ideas....... The more the better.....
Reply to Betsy:
I would love to voice our issues to the masses via the media. Maybe you may know a couple of people??? But how, who, when, and where, I don't know.... and to do so would be so much pressure......... stress stress stress... It is all about us, our movement, who we as a people are. Our muscles and body can not grow or even function for that matter, without stress. It is all a part of life.
[Monica]
Originally posted by Jules
The main diffence between is GLB and T with intersex is this:
Intersex is choiceless!! We can't control how our bodys look at birth. We are biologicaly diffrent from the start, nobody can choose it for us, We can't chose it for ourselves.
Some intersex people trasgender from one sex to another, that is a choice.
Not all intersex people however reject the gender that is given to them.
You can be intersexed but not trasgendered.
You can be trangended but not intersexed.
You can be intersexed and trasgendered.
Can a intersexual be a Lesbain, or a Homosexual, or a Hetrosexual? That is the question of the week.
Because intersexuals blur the lines between male and female in a diffrent way then other people might think, or be ready to think, I think it is better if they are not under the same umbrella. But we should support each other indeed! `
Can we share our storys and support each other, of course. Can we fight for equal right togeather? Well, that is very touchy because I don't want to be in the same class as everybody else. They are two seprate issues even when someone shares them both.
Many of the issues look alike when one looks quickly without doing much research but one is pysicaly biological and the other is pyscological, even if you argue that the biological, pyscoligical reasons for trasngendering are in the mind. (whew!)
I believe you are right on the button, causes are simply not the same, IS folks need to have the same voice with the same agenda that can not be confused with the agenda of any other, I was often confused with being gay which I have never been in spite of the ability to breast feed a baby, but would never want the people of choice to include me in their agenda.
I could be very comfortable with an IS partner but never one who is TS or gay or seeking same sex relationships.
Am presently doing what I can to help some make this difference between IS folks in contrast to others who are not "so born from their mother's womb" and just role playing.
Am new here to the forum so don't want to be saying too much, looking forward to sharing good things and encouraging. Can see my own background in the signiture area, just not all the scars that today only say that healing happend, no more open wounds.
I noticed that you have joined this forum. I took a look at your web page, and saw a picture of you in your battle fatigues in Vietnam. I wonder what it was like to be intersexed in the military.
I think that you are a guy who is honest about his feelings. You posted that you are intersex but not gay. As I have often felt that I was misunderstood in my life as being gay, I know that the issue can be frustrating at times. But in the end, I realize that that the frustration is born out of society's fear of homosexuals, and not actual homosexuality. You want the world to accept you as a straight and intersexed guy.
In politics, you want there to be a clear separation between the gay agenda and the IS agenda. I dislike the term "gay agenda", as it makes the gay struggle seem somehow devious. The problem with your argument is that there are also gay intersexed people in this world, who want to be accepted as intersexed and gay. They want the same freedom to be themselves and pursue their own happiness that you wish for yourself. So, although you would like there to be a clear separation between the gay world and the intersex world, one does not in fact exist.
Peter
"Role playing", "lifestyle choice", not "womynbornwomyn" or "mynbornmyn" or "ISbornIS". TS is a psychological problem.
Can you think of any more typical establishment notions of TS?
I was roleplaying in Vietnam (1967 - 1969). If I had sense I should have gotten a 1F deferment as a psycho.
Apparently the various factions do not understand each other. And therefore there cannot be much for any kind of union for common interests because each faction offends the other.
We get the same "stuff" from GLB's too. But we are working on having a common ground. Of course, if we are "het" we are really "gay". If we claim to be women we are really men.
:eek:
I'm not "really" a human being I'm really a red heifer!
Originally posted by ptrinkl108
I noticed that you have joined this forum. I took a look at your web page, and saw a picture of you in your battle fatigues in Vietnam. I wonder what it was like to be intersexed in the military.
I think that you are a guy who is honest about his feelings. You posted that you are intersex but not gay.
Peter
Thanks for your comments Peter, you are quite right, in spite of being IS I am also somewhat shallow and hope to broaden the depth of understanding along the way, I am the pupil not the teacher.
I have two conditions, Gynecomastia and klinefelter syndrome, was not a major problem for me in having spent ten years in the military, Vietnam being the reason I got out but many of us revisit it many times in the flashbacks.
Beating the odds has been the battle charge so to speak, using the same strategies as a man by the name of David Ring who always issues his challenge to people in giving motivational talks, saying " I have Cerebral Palsy - What's your problem?" can read his full story at http://www.davidring.org/index.htm
also enjoy other discussions such as the one that can be found at:
The Body God Gave Me
http://www.bruderhof.com/articles/Intersexed.htm
http://www.bruderhof.com/e-books/SeekingPeace.htm
Have found many who's differences are in the area of belief rather than the physical, many of us with Post Traumatic Stress Disorder on top of other things have realized that the real battle is not out there but rather between the ears, battle being for the mind, govern the inner space and the outer space doesn't seem that tough after all.
thanks again for our response..
Lou,
I did a Yahoo search for "Gay Christian" on the Internet in hopes of finding some materials to help you overcome your fears of gay and trans people. I would not generally do this, but I am doing this as one intersex person to another.
I believe that behind all of your talk about "choice" and "role playing" is a fear of gay and trans people. Do you think that you should be "a slave again to fear"? Romans 8:15. Realistically, you will probably meet less than five trans people in your life. And here you are drawing up battle lines to exclude them from your platform for the IS community. I would suggest that you look deeply in your own heart. In the past, the Bible was used to justify slavery through "proof text". Do you think that slavery is not a sin?
And what did Jesus say about homosexuality. "." Absolutely nothing.
I found the following link to an English site called "The Evangelical Fellowship For Lesbian And Gay Christians" The following link is to a list of ten books that you might find helpful:
http://www.eflgc.org.uk/tentitles.shtml
Peter
I went to a gathering called WitnessOurWelcome in 2000. Actually I missed most of it. I got there in time for the Sunday service that a lot of those gatherings end with. The people next to me had kin or friends who were gay. There were well over a thousand in the auditorium. I supposed that most were gay, but there was really no way to tell. As far as I knew I was the only trans person there, but at the end a transwoman was being ordained as a minister and they called us out for a blessing and to participate. A slim person with small breasts walked down the aisle beside me as and I gave her(?) a quick hug, I was so happy to see someone like me there. When I got to the front and I lay my hand on the shoulder of the transwoman who was to be ordained I looked past her and realized that the six or so on the other side were transmen and my head began to swim. Every time my hand went to her shoulder there was something like electricity that passed between it and her hand would come up to cover mine.
The person who was presiding had said that we would see a lot of strange things here, like bearded women. She herself had a magnificent red goatee and I couldn't place where she(?) would belong in all of this.
I was so overwhelmed that I when I went back to my seat after being touched like that and put a scarf on my head and replaced the shirt over my tank top with another top. Nobody seemed to notice at all or care.
I don't know how many gay people were there or how many straight or how many trans who didn't dare. We didn't recognize the intersex, but I am sure there were many there who were also there. I have also said elsewhere that I am not so sure that I am not intersex myself, though not obviously. And a lot of trans are also intersex and a lot of intersex are gay. I don't have any sexual interests myself but depending on who you are you could interpret me as gay or straight, male or female.
I can't say I have met 5 intersex people in my life but I believe that I have because we are not so rare. I didn't know my niece was (Turner's syndrome) until just a couple of years ago and she is over thirty now.
God made us, so God must have made us for a purpose. What the heck did she have in mind?
My apologies to any atheists here. I've been there myself and I hate to have God pushed down my throat.
Peace and all good!
Uriela
You sure have met the intersexed right here at BLO. Sure you have not met them face to face. But we do welcome you here, and share our ideas and issues. Some speak up more then others, but We are very non-judgemental people (speaking for myself of course) We have also struggled with issues very much like some of the issues you have delt with. I have thought that we should share support even if we may not be under the same umbrella:)
Originally posted by Jules
You sure have met the intersexed right here at BLO. Sure you have not met them face to face. But we do welcome you here, and share our ideas and issues. Some speak up more then others, but We are very non-judgemental people (speaking for myself of course) We have also struggled with issues very much like some of the issues you have delt with. I have thought that we should share support even if we may not be under the same umbrella:)
Hi
Sorry things were misunderstood, was only offering why some would be supportive of bringing IS folks into the same agenda with the gay community and why others like ISGI would not and why, not a matter of homophobia but needing to maintain what is unique to IS people.
My thoughs are the same as the director of ISGI, can read this to clearify where I am at as well, many differ regarding a united front so to speak, but biggatry must be confronted by all who cherish individual liberty.
http://www.isgi.org/director.html
http://www.isgi.org/Rock.html
can anyone give me any names of books about intersexuals written by intersexuals?
Just found another one:
Not Just a Touch: Living a Childhood of Sexual Abuse and Growing Up Intersexed
by Gerald Donais
J haven't read it though.
Sofie
cougar9q
02-07-04, 11:05 PM
thanx for the new title..
I have read that book that you referred me to Betsy, Intersex and Identity.
That was a really good book. That was the second book that I read about intersexuality that made me feel so special, as opposed to other books about us that just were not as supportive as that one. The author in her book as I remember said that many intersexuals are well educated. That is awesome. ........anyway thanx for the new titles, and keep on sending them in people...
Thanx,
Monica [cougar9q]
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