Mosaic or AIS and willing to come out publicly

[Betsy]

Bodies Like Ours is being courted by many organizations (big ones---you would know them) wanting to find people to file legal paperwork asking states to determine what they mean by male and female when defining heterosexual marriage. Ideally, we would like to find someone with mosaic chromosomes or AIS and filing for heterosexual marriage.

If you are interested in doing something like this , please let us know. Understand that you will need to come out and need to be in front on this--including media appearances, etc.

We've had some folks CA wanting to do it but the courts there aren't going into the definition issue.

States where they do will work. Texas would be a beautiful place to file cases, Ohio would be a beautful place too.

Betsy

[claraJane]

Hey Betsy,

So, I'm mosaic, heterosexual, and happily married. But I'm a little confused as to why the courts would want to say anything at all about my marriage unless someone else challanged it. I think I understand what you'd like, but can you explain for the class?

Kind regards,
mrs cjs
:cool:

[cougar9q]

I am not a hetero but I am MGD. I am not sure if that is a form of mosiacism. But according to Texas chromosome marriage law, I can get married since I am XY to a XX female.

Let me know if I can help!

Monica

[claraJane]

Hi Monica,

Mixed Gonadal Dysgenesis (MGD) is usually 44,X (Turner syndrome) in a mosaic with 46,XY or 47,XXY, or 47,XYY. So, yes, you'd be mosaic. If you're really 46,XY and 46,XX then you're likely a chimera, which is also a mosaic.

Kind regards,
cjs

[cougar9q]

I'm 46 XY...so I am chimera?

What is chimera?

Thanx,

Monica

[claraJane]

Hi Monica,

MGD usually starts out as 46,XY and then a cell division results in loss of a Y chromosome. So, thereafter, some cells have a Y chromosome and some don't. That's mosaicism. Most MGD babies are fairly normal males; perhaps 5 percent female; 5 percent ambiguous. And about 20 percent of MGD kids have something other than the two standard testes (dysgenetic testis, streak ovary, ovatestis on either side instead).

A chimera usually starts out as more than one zygote. That would ordinarily be fraternal twins. Sometimes they're close and grow together to become a single human fetus. That's a chimera or chimaera. When one zygote was 46,XY and the other was 46,XX, that can result in intersex.

There's another type of mosaicism that results from some of the mother's blood intermingling with the fetus'. I don't remember what that's called but I'm pretty sure that it doesn't cause intersex in the same way that MGD often does.

Kind regards,
cjs

[cougar9q]

Hey,

Clara, I had a streak ovary removed....As for anything else I would have to hit the books (my medical records)....I will go do that and tell what I got..


Thanx,

Monica

[claraJane]

As far as I know streak ovaries are only found in people with an XO (Turner syndrome) cell line. It's certainly consistent with your having MGD. :)

[claraJane]

Betsy,

It would be interesting to know who wants to file suit. There are, I think, several issues.

The definition of marriage

If this is about redefining the institution of marriage so as to include long-term homosexual relationships then it really isn't about intersex any more than it is about non-intersex people. To bring in the definition of male and female is really a red herring. Intersex people have the same marriage rights that non-intersex people do.

The definition of male and female

In most states legal sex is determined at birth based on a cursory examination of the genitals and, for the vast majority of individuals, this is a reasonable approach. Most states provide a mechanism for correcting mistakes.

Some court cases have muddied the waters, most notably the Littleton case in Texas. However, later cases, for instance the Gardiner case in Kansas, note that there are a multitude of factors that must be considered in a determination of legal sex.

In the Littleton case the marriage was held invalid for several reasons. 1) ChristieLee was a transsexual and acknowledged having a "normal" male phenotype at birth. 2) At the time of her marriage she had not yet changed her legal status to female (I think). 3) Texas had no laws regarding a transsexual changing sex and the court stated that it wanted to defer to the legislature. 4) The court used a rigid definition of sex based on popular science.

In the Gardiner case, the court rejected the Littleton ruling, stating:

"Aside from chromosomes, we adopt the criteria set forth by Professor Greenberg. On remand, the trial court is directed to consider factors in addition to chromosome makeup, including: gonadal sex, internal morphologic sex, external morphologic sex, hormonal sex, phenotypic sex, assigned sex and gender of rearing, and sexual identity. The listed criteria we adopt as significant in resolving the case before us should not preclude the consideration of other criteria as science advances. "

Betsy, I changed my legal status from male to female more than 25 years ago. Indeed, I have lived my entire adult life as a woman. At no time have I been treated by our governments and courts as anything but female. Because my birth certificate says female I had no trouble obtaining a marriage license in order to marry a male. I have held security clearances, FAA ratings, a passport, foreign visas, etc.

I also know quite a few intersex women, mostly CAIS, who are happily married. A few of them were, at one time, legally male. And yet none of them had any trouble with their legal sexual status nor in obtaining a marriage license. Consequently, I wonder why one would want to start a lawsuit unless there were an agenda other than being treated as the sex designated on one's birth certificate.

Avoiding future problems

So, leaving aside the argument over gay marriage for a moment, why are IS people concerned and how might a lawsuit help?

Unfortunately, most of the people that I know, even IS people, think in terms of the Y chromosome when it comes to defining sex. If, in reaction to courts trying to redefine marriage, this nation passes an ammendment affirming that marriage is one man and one woman, then the courts will eventually have to define male and female. Or, perhaps that will be included in the ammendment.

Even if such an ammendment passes, that pretty much leaves IS people right where they are now. Male and female will still be based on birth certificate rather than karyotype.

But, if you're really worried about that, then the thing to do is to help educate the public regarding intersex conditions, especially those who are in a position to make a difference, whether congressmen or some family values coalition.

What can a court case win?

I'm still trying to figure this one out. Since no legitimate right has been denied me I see nothing to gain as a direct result of a court case. However, even were I to win, I can think of things that would be forever lost. Things like my family dragged through it. And my coworkers. And the time and expense of the battle. And other things left undone.

So, what am I missing Betsy? You know that if I thought it would help some little IS kid get better medical treatment, or allow them to avoid having to live as the wrong sex, I'd consider risking a court battle. But I can't see how it would help me or them either.

Kind regards,
cjs

[Betsy]

It's mostly a preemptive move Jen. And it would be a good thing for our IS brethren who do identify as lesbian or gay and wish to marry their partner. Unfortunately, if they legislate male and female into the constitutional as the only genders fit for marrying (and only to the opposite version at that) it's only a matter of time that they will have to define it legally. I'd much rather be proactive rather than reactive in that case.

Our community is pretty diverse and it's important that everyone have the basic civil rights that others have and may have.

Will it stop intersex genital mutilations? Maybe...might stop parents from surgically reinforcing sex in case the gender assignment was wrong. Imagine leaving a little boy with his micropenis alone and he likes girls when he grows up. He can marry the one he loves and wants to spend his life with.

Now imagine that same little boy with a micropenis who has a non-consensual sex reassignment surgery done on him and now "she"(he?) still likes girls. To bad "she"(he?) can't marry the one "she"(he?) loves and wants to the spend the rest of eternity with.

That's just not right and it's an issue I feel strongly that we as a community need to be proactive on.

At this very early exploratory stage, I'm not really at liberty to reveal who's knocking but if anything comes of it, I have no doubt that you will know :)

Betsy

[claraJane]

Hey Betsy,

I believe in being proactive too. That's why I'll continue corresponding with family values types. I suspect that some day I'll become more involved than either my husband or I really want.

Betsy, I believe, however, that more court cases would be counter-productive for us. Can I try to explain? I know quite a few people who are in favor of a marriage protection ammendment. Here are the reasons I hear. 1) Although they don't mind the thought of two men or two women in a long-term committment, they're tired of people changing the meaning of words. 2) They're tired of the courts writing law. They're tired of courts making what they feel are clearly bad decisions. 3) They're angry about small-time politicians breaking the law or special groups getting special exemptions from the law. For quite a few people this seems to be the straw that broke the camel's back and has very little to do with gays. I belive that having the courts issue rulings on who is male and who is female will only add fuel to the fire. And that is regardless of what the courts rule. Consider just one thing, kid. How many people are still sore about the 2000 election fiasco?

Kind regards,
cjs

[Az1]

Why Ohio?, isn't there enough hate in the world.
Ohio is very diverse, there is alot of the old school thinking in Ohio.
Ohio supports the Gay community and also the lesbian community but to be IS, I do not think this should be the building block of building a strong IS Community in Ohio and the reason I say this is I have not met another IS individual here. Being born with IS I do not think there are a lot of IS living here.I may be wrong.
I do not think that anyone knows what kind of war would be fought here in Ohio.
a quote "Male and female will still be based on birth certificate rather than karyotype." thanks to our lovely and wise medical profession.
Ohio,
There are no laws or civil rights that protect Az1 here in Ohio.
I live in one county and work in another county here in Central Ohio, USA.
Where I work the civil rights support all rights of indivduals except IS.
Where I live I think being a someting not known hangings are still a way of life.( not, just humoring.)
I am true IS as my posts have reveled here at blo.
I agree with Betsy : To bad "she"(he?) can't marry the one "she"(he?.
nuff said.


Muhoe
Az1

[lost]

i agree totally with clarajane..................

I was born with a micopenis, thank god , I was not changed to a girl ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,I agree with you 100% on that betsy ,,,,,, but I think we need to stop the surgeries,,,,,,,,,,,,, not change laws to fit people that have had something wrong done to them.... lets focus on stoping the" wrong".

the people at the courts don't even know what intersex means, I know , my mother worked for the provincial courts for 15 years and she has an intersexed son ,,, and never heard the word intersex before last week .
How can intersexed people expect to have any rights if most people don't even know we exist !

It sounds to me like this is just one more case of, one group trying to use another group for their own benefit .
I for one , do not see how ,two people born genetically correct males that want to marry ,,, has anything to do with me, or my intersex condition.

I thought this site was about intersexed people ? theres tons of support out there for you if you are gay,,,,,,,,,,, there is piss all if you are intersexed. this is the only site I have found for support.
All I am finding lately is gay talk ,,,,,,,polls on gay marrage that insinuate you are homophobic if you don't jump on the whole gay marrage bandwagon.

It has nothing to do with being homophobic ,,,,,,,it has everything to do with , I am intersexed and not gay.,,, and I think intersexed people should be selfish right now ,,,,
I don't really care if gays can marry ,,,,,,, I am too worried about the intersexed babies getting carved up right now.

we need to be at those hospitals ,,,,,,,,,,,, protesting against the surgeries,,,, we need to be there making sure the parents are well informed before making decisions .

I do want everyone to know that I believe our society should be one of acceptance,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, for ALL . And one day I hope we can all band together and fight for acceptance .
But right now most of society doesn't even know intersexed people exist ,,,,, and until that changes,,,,, your on your own.

I may be narrow minded right now , as I am sure there are intersexed people who identify as being gay , so to them I ask , what is more important right now ?
Stoping the little boy from accidently being turned into a girl ? or change laws so the kid can marry , once it grows up and realizes the horrible thing that was done to him ?

I have read tons and tons of intersexed stories,,,,,,,,,,,,, all that I could possibly find...............
and i don't recall ever seeing anything about how terrible their life was because they couldn't get married to someone of the same sex.
But I DO recall,,,,,,,,,,, all of the heartache because of the secrecy and shame .

If you are intersexed ,,, and your biggest problem is not having a piece of paper saying you are married?
then I say ,,,, boo hoo ,,,,,,,,too bad...
little billy just got turned onto becky ,,,,,,,,,,
and little suzy just had her clit cut in half,,,,,,,,

[Betsy]

Consider just one thing, kid. How many people are still sore about the 2000 election fiasco?

I'm personally getting tired of anytime something comes up that is perceived to be anti current president, those who appear to be in favor of him claim that dissatisfaction is due to people being sore over the 2000 election fiasco. It's something that has come up here more than once and is starting to come across as paranoia by those stating it.

I don't see this as a homosexual v intersex issue. Lots of IS people are LGBT, and yes, lots are not. And for many, the lines get blurred because of surgery that was done 20, 30, 40, 50 years ago.

It has nothing to do with partisan politics at all in my mind, but ensuring that all of our community has equal protection under the law. Fact is, they can change our genitals through surgery but we can't change our sexual orientation with that surgery.

And whether it is involves IS people or not, you can pretty much count on lawsuits being filed in states and on the federal level when attempts are made to codify what it means to be male or female.

We've had medical doctors fucking with our bodies for decades trying define us. Last thing I want is politicians doing the same by trying to come up with their legal definition of sex and gender. By being proactive before it can get that far, hopefully we can make a difference for everyone concerned.

Would you rather be proactive in that or would you rather be reactive where the fight to protect basic human rights and equal protection is more drawn out and lengthy, and thus costly?

It's not a gay and lesbian issue vs an intersex issue---it's an everyone issue.

Betsy

PS...please don't call me "kid". I find it rather disrespectful, particularly since I'm pretty sure we are not that far about in age. And if I am mistaken, I don't think calling you "old gal" would be appreciated ;)

[claraJane]

Sorry about the "kid" Betsy. I certainly meant no disrespect.

I agree with you about being proactive. I just think that using the courts to try to change the law is counterproductive.

As far as being a supporter of the current president, ???. I have no idea what his views are regarding intersex nor do I of his opponent. And as far as paranoia goes, I believe that a quick but honest survey of postings on this site will show that it isn't me that's paranoid, Betsy. Nor you. The postings that make outlandish claims for either persecution or conspiracy aren't mine.

"Last thing I want is politicians doing the same by trying to come up with their legal definition of sex and gender."

Betsy, I agree completely. But neither do I appreciate some appointed judge making that decision. Nor some mayor in a city far away.

Kind regards,
cjs

[Az1]

Would you rather be proactive in that or would you rather be reactive where the fight to protect basic human rights and equal protection is more drawn out and lengthy, and thus costly?

I have thought about what has been said here over the past 24 hrs and I think that I would perfer to have rights and laws protecting me.
But I do not know how to do something on this magnitude.
Let me ask of anyone posting here at blo does any one else have rights protecting them in their state or community that are IS?.

In my opinion I do not think that this is my fault. I have come to the understanding that I have to deal with IS. ( XXy )
If the Holy One is of One, than male and female do not exist.

muhoe

Az1

[Dana Gold]

QUOTE:

"We've had medical doctors fucking with our bodies for decades trying define us."

AND shrinks, politicians, and the "Moral Majority" (so-called "experts" and the righteous) fucking with our MINDS and LIVES trying to codify US as human beings (or less).

And where have all of past activists for the following gained justice and equality , but through the legal system:

Women's Rights to vote
African-American non-discrimination and votes
AND many other human rights that had to be "fought for" by the "right to protest", courts, legislation etc. since the history of the USA.....which, by the way, elicited "backlash" from those that "didn't like it".

If we don't stand up for ourselves, who will??:confused: :rolleyes: :mad:

[Dana Gold]

quote:

"little billy just got turned onto becky ,,,,

If Becky still is really Billy despite the surgery, what happens if he/she wants to be normal and marry into a normal union with a woman?.....perform brain surgery to normalize the psyche?? or allow same-sex marriage when Becky really feels like Billy and hates being regarded as gay/lesbian, or have it be illegal to do so and Becky/Billy cannot get married, so that Becky decides to become Billy (or Billy to becky) through TS means (and hates being regarded as "another trannie" and because of birth "certificate" sez Female or Male (back to square #1!!)....haha! haha!!.....sorry, Charlie!! you ain't good (legal and/or "moral") enough to be a Starkist Tuna!
(old 60/70s commercial punch line)

I wonder how many Billy/Beckys there are in the world?....not to mention Becky/Billys :(

How many people would feel bad at not being able to marry?...or to know that what is normal to them (marriage) is abnormal and/or illegal to the Law., or they are just "too few" to mention and/or are regarded as insignificant 'numbers'

I have not stated the above for want of marriage...I do NOT want a partner, but I personally know of some who would (IS/TS and TS) ....to be exempted from "normal" society is an awful thing :(

[Betsy]

Let me ask of anyone posting here at blo does any one else have rights protecting them in their state or community that are IS?.

Hey Muhoe,

It's kind of dependent on the type of intersex condition you have. There are many different types and manifestations even within the same type of condition.

Betsy

[Sofie]

In Denmark any person can marry whomever they like. The only limitation is that you cannot be legally married to more than one person at a time.
There are no laws or regulations regarding persons with IS.

Sof i e

[Betsy]

Originally posted by Sofie
In Denmark any person can marry whomever they like. The only limitation is that you cannot be legally married to more than one person at a time.
There are no laws or regulations regarding persons with IS.

Sof i e

As it should be. We are still a bit prehistoric here in the US of good ol A

Betsy