no mas para mi

[Dana Gold]

**********************

[Sofie]

Hi Dana,
When I saw your posts yesterday with your avatar gone and a n/a, I thought you were going to leave BLO. I would miss you. I suppose that what others have said about feeling here like a family is true for me too.

cheers
Sof i e

[Dana Gold]

Hi Sofie,

Thanks for your concern; and no, I won't be leaving....but, (even though I am a Science Nerd and know and have experienced a lot of things in life) I have one thing that all of intelligence and knowledge, etc. help nothing: panic/anxiety and depression. And this week, especially the last two days, both have "hit me hard". Oh Gosh, I will confess that I was well, hysterical and in a major panic.:eek: :( I have not had such a bad one (panic attack) since 2 yrs ago (ended up in emergency room of hospital: very high blood pressure, tremors, palpitations, vertigo, profuse sweating, fear, crying in between) and have had only small ones since. I am better now, took my Ativan (tranquilizer), and reflected upon myself, am tired but "clear-headed", but tomorrow is Saturday...will recuperate and try to have some fun this week-end......I need to have fun more often....I admit to being too serious. And thank you again for asking about me.:) ....I would be hurting myself for leaving BLO...I'm here to stay; besides, I promised Betsy I would help do some stuff...I keep my promises.
Take care.

Dana

[ptrinkl108]

Hi Dana,

Thanks for sticking around. I have always enjoyed your posts. You encouraged me when I first came to this site, and sent me a great little animated cartoon to cheer me up. I believe that you really feel things in the world around you. I believe that the term "paranoia" simply refers to a heightened state of awareness. I can not help but insert an anti-psychiatry note here. When Wittgenstein was asked what he thought about Freud, he replied that he could not understand the big fuss over dreams being symbolic representations of repressed sexual desires. Wittgenstein noted that sexually explicit dreams are extremely commonplace. I don't know exactly why, but those comments often cheer me up when I feel like I am in the grip of my demons. I read Wittgenstein's comments in a gender queer way. I hope that you were able to rest and recuperate over the week-end, and that this week goes well for you.

Peter

[Dana Gold]

Hi Peter,

I did get some rest over the week-end. And this week is much better for me. I'm glad you liked the little video. I have some more below, some of which is humor related to office work.

(go toward the bottom of each webpage)

http://www.veryfunnyvideos.com/col05.html

http://www.veryfunnyvideos.com/col13.html

As for psychological theories, I like Carl Jung's concept of the collective consciousness. All of us exist in this universe with varying levels of awareness; as in a consciousness continuim. And all of us have the potential to elevate our consciousness. Awareness & Interpreting the "incoming signals" of daily life (whether extrinsic or intrinsic), then is directly related to the level of consciousness and present "purity of mind" (which last week was on a low level with me). That process determines whether the person realizes the true nature of the present moment, or misconstrues it. Making mistakes may be a valuable learning experience OR the cause for further misinterpretation ( the "vicious circle) .....anyway, enough of philosophy.....gotta get back to work.
I, thankfully, learned from last week.

Lastly, thank you for your (and other BLO members too) encouragement. (incoming signals.......subspace transmission;)

Live long and prosper


Dana:D

[ptrinkl108]

Hi Dana,

You made some interesting comments. I personally think that "purity of mind" is difficult to achieve. The more I think about it, the more I think that there is a disjunction between what is between my legs and what is between my ears. What happens when one's mental world does not conform to one's bodily world? One person said to me recently about intersex, "Your gender is male, and you were raised as male, so what is the problem?" I wonder if it is possible to have an intersex brain. Perhaps we are lucky in that although they can perform intersex genital surgery, they cannot perform intersex brain surgery.

I remember often thinking about this in junior high school. I knew that I was neither gay nor straight as these things are conventionally understood. From when I was about eight to eleven, my best friend was a guy who was probably gay. As I hit puberty, I remember us going in different directions and drifting apart. One day, in the school cafeteria, I saw him with another kid, who had been the roughest toughest bully back in sixth grade. In a brief moment, I thought that I finally understood where this other kid was coming from. Although the school district finally sent me off for psychological testing, there was a great lack of support services for intersex students.

I still wonder if it is possible to have an intersex brain, and if anyone either knows of research in this area, or has an opinion on the subject.

Peter

[Dana Gold]

Although this research is based upon a bird study, it nevertheless shows the existence of an "intersexed brain" in nature.
We humans are part of the same nature.....soooo, judge for yourself:

http://www.scientificamerican.com/print_version.cfm?articleID=000555BB-B737-1E7B-A98A809EC5880105



As far as human studies are concerned:

The Sexually Dimorphic Nucleus and Pre-optic Chiasma, as well of the microscopic BSTc regions have been researched and some preliminary evidence shows these regions as sex differentiation sites.

http://www.nature.com/cgi-taf/DynaPage.taf?file=/neuro/journal/v5/n10/full/nn922.html

My contention: if intersexed in the body, why not in the brain also (it IS part of the body, after all:rolleyes:

Very interesting, huh?

Dana

OH!...and "purity of mind", yes, that's an idealistic state....what I should have said is a lesser confused and/or befuddled mind....in this society, who doesn't get "brain rattled" sometime, or emotionally exhausted?

Finally: quote: "Perhaps we are lucky in that although they can perform intersex genital surgery, they cannot perform intersex brain surgery."

Don't give "them" any ideas, Peter! (just kidding)
Electro-shock treatments:eek: have been performed on gays and transsexuals in the past to "re-scramble" (as in regular "psycho-therapy) their brains to "cure them". In the mid-70's I worked in a psychiatric center where I assisted with these...in the movie "A Beautiful Mind" starring Russel Crowe, there's a scene showing EST in "progress.....terrible, terrible.:(

[Sofie]

I still wonder if it is possible to have an intersex brain, and if anyone either knows of research in this area, or has an opinion on the subject.

Hi Peter,

We don't even know if our sense of "self" has it's origins within our physical body or boundaries.

Maybe one day scientists will discover the parts of the brain "containing" the sexual orientation or genderidentity. Maybe they will be able to switch these parts of the brain on and off. I don't like to think about that.

Anyway: Since all humyn brains are different, an intersex-persyn has a brain, that is different from a non-intersex-persyns. :D

cheers
Sof i e
(pocket-sized scientist)

[Dana Gold]

an opinion on the subject.:

Maybe they will be able to switch these parts of the brain on and off. I don't like to think about that.

Sofie makes a good point; I fear a lot of people would like to use that research to prevent and control "deviancy from the norm", instead of understanding and accepting the reality of it. Knowledge is power, like the saying goes.

That's why I dislike the analytical nature of science... we're just brains and genitals to them....it's a literal mind-fu*k. for those of us who don't have "normal ones"......terrible, terrible.:( :mad: :confused:

[ptrinkl108]

Hi Sofie,

I quote: "We don't even know if our sense of "self" has its origin within our physical body or boundaries."

That is a really interesting statement, and it has got me thinking. I guess that what started me on this issue, was reading the article on a famous failure of John Money's gender assignments. I read that nurture could not override nature and that the ressigned child was miserable with a "female" assignment. So, I figured that if it was not genitals and not nurture, that left the brain. It does seem that somehow the brain is central. I know that there is research showing that trans people really are correct to believe that their brains may be in conflict with their bodies, and that the brain has priority. The problems with John Money's work also seem to point in that direction.

But you raise an interesting point about "mind" and "self". It's true as you say that "self" may not have its origin within our physical body. Most obviously, one's sense of self is often developed through language which is not private. Also, one's sense of self is partially built up over time though interacting with other people. I know that statements like, "I wish you were really a male." have had an impact on my life.

Peter

[Dana Gold]

Point to ponder:

Can the "self" exist without the physical body? Does the "self" think and feel w/o the body? Is the self matter or energy, or neither?

;)

[ptrinkl108]

Hi Dana,

Well, now we are really drifting OT, but maybe not. Like everyone else, I usually use the term self in a pretty common sense way, to refer to my experiences. But you are taking the question to another level, which I guess would be a religious level. I have some reservations about this. Anyway, I am sitting around my apartment in a reflective mood, and I guess that I will take up some of your points.

(Note: I have edited out some of my thoughts as I believe that they will probably be mis-understood.)

Anyway, I don't think that the "self" can exist outside of a physical body, but then physical bodies might not exist in the way that they are commonly thought to exist. To answer your question as to whether the "self" is ultimately composed of "energy", "matter", or "neither", I would vote for "neither" because I don't believe that there is any infinite permanent entity which can be called "self". As to whether a "self" can "think" or "feel" without a body, I tend to doubt it. However, I do believe that there is no such thing as a "private" pain, and that when you feel the pain of others, you are really feeling their pain. It's not two separate pains, one pain in one body and another pain in another body.

Peter

[Dana Gold]

quote:

"which I guess would be a religious level."

Not really, Peter.....the way I wanted it to mean has more to do with

1. the avant-garde emergence of what is termed 'esoteric physics' (i.e. different planes of existence/dimensions)

2. life philosophy based upon the universe being more than what we (here on earth) can observe and record.

As for religion, well, everyone has their own belief system and perception of universal phenomena, and I respect that. However,
I was thinking more in terms of "life force" or the "consciousness"; and the Einsteinian equation wherein matter can be converted to energy and (?) vice versa.....and what happens in between those states, like in the observable Universe.

Anyway, enough of esoterica. For me , it helps get my mind off of some ofthe mundane and ugly sh*t of life on planet Earth, by "rising above it all" (elevate my consciousness or as I term it "life condition")...because, at times, I have a tendency to let that same sh*t pull me down to that level. Hence a purpose for my having a belief system/life philosophy that acknowledges that there is more to life than that same sh*t, and a simple "existence", subservient to a "higher authority".


"The world is so empty if one thinks only of mountains, rivers and cities; but to know someone here and there who thinks and feels with us, and though distant, is close to us in spirit - this makes the earth for us an inhabited garden."
-Johann von Goethe

"There are no passengers on spaceship earth. We are all crew."
-Marshall McLuhan


Dana (ever the Cynic and "Stirrer of the Pot of Controversy":rolleyes:

[ptrinkl108]

Hi Dana,

You mentioned: "Hence a purpose for my having a belief system/life philosophy that acknowledges that there is more to life than that same sh*t, and a simple "existence", subservient to a "higher authority".

You have interesting thoughts. I also have problems with systems of thought that hold "existence", subservient to a "higher" authority. I have a personal goal of having an expanded view of the world which is not authoritarian at its foundations. I believe that a strict "materialism" tends to lead to depression through a curtailing of the imagination. So I am all for imaginative non-authoritarian world-views.

Peter

[Sofie]

..... famous failure of John Money's gender assignments. I read that nurture could not override nature .....
My personal belief is, that nurture and love always can override nature. What John Money did to this child, was simply cruel, it was causing physical and emotional pain. It had nothing to do with nurture.

I too believe that my sense of self has developed by acting and interacting. Next week I might believe something else :D

Sofie (listening to some nice music playing outside the physical boundaries of her body)

[Dana Gold]

Hooray for 'imaginative non-authoritarian world-views AND nice music outside the physical boundaries of the body!!

Sounds like a very nice Friday afternoon to me:D (ooops, for you, Sofie, a nice Fri evening)

Dana;)

[Wyn]

Quote:
B]Awareness & Interpreting the "incoming signals" of daily life (whether extrinsic or intrinsic), then is directly related to the level of consciousness and present "purity of mind"[/B]

Having a (small but varied) engineering background, are you aware that the DNA molecule/strand, because it 'doubles back' on itself, truthfully forms a helical dipole antenna??!!! This, in itself, I find MOST interesting. That the cross-links may be modifiers of the frequency to which a particular strand may be 'tuned' to makes it all the more interesting.

I would suggest that the 'signals' you speak of consist not only of those we experiance in the here and now of the physical world, but that we also are subject to a more uniform and constant form of 'communication' that we have little knowledge of, but seem to take for granted as long as we place it in the form of 'spirituallity'.

Of particular, but little acknowledged note, is that all of us are 'products' of the physical universe. I would put forth the proposition that our consciousness is also a product of the universe, and that, more importantly, as part of the universe, all of us have MASS, including our DNA.

And, what is the most UNIVERSAL force to which ALL MASS is subjected to in varying degrees, dependent on location? Newton described it first mathematically, yet it is STILL the most undefined concept in terms of modality of transmission - the concept of GRAVITY. It truthfully is an INFINITE FIELD, and while it diminishes with distance, it's influence NEVER ENDS. If there were EVER a FORCE that defines the concept of a 'GODLIKE' entity, this is it. I would also point out that it is COMPLETELY NEUTRAL in terms of it's actions and influences.

How do you define consciousness? I'll take a stab at it: Consciousness is a COHESIVE AND UNIFORM PATTERN OF THOUGHT. Carrying that concept forward, a UNIVERAL CONSCIOUSNESS would be CONSISTANT,COHESIVE AND UNIFORM PATTERN OF THOUGHT. Here, I will take a stretch and propose that GRAVITY is the EFFECT OF A UNIVERSALLY INFINITE CONSCIOUSNESS THAT IS A CONSISTANT AND COHESIVE PATTERN OF THOUGHT THAT 'HOLDS' ALL MASS TOGETHER.

And, with this concept, we are now entering the 'world' of Quantum Mechanics.

I suspect that some of you know that 'scientists' have recently 'discovered' that ALL galaxies have, at their center, a MASSIVE 'Black Hole'.

However, this term is quite overused and does not elicit the respect it deserves. I find the technical description of these physical phenomena far more lucid: SINGULARITY (a 'pointlike' object in which all matter passes through an 'EVENT HORIZON', never to be 'seen' again).

The 'pointlike' description truthfully reflects the absolute center of these Singularities, where the matter becomes INFINITELY DENSE, and is Surmized to pass 'beyond' our current physical universe. And AGAIN, these entities are created from the direct actions of GRAVITY.

So, where to now, now that everything is getting sucked into oblivian!? Well, Stephen Hawkins, (I hope we all know something of this phenomenal individual, and his works) a physicist, delved into the mathematical concepts surrounding MASSIVE singularities, and -- guess what --- they EXPLODE!!!

What does all this have to do with us and our existance in the 'physical' world. Better yet, WHY do we and the universe exist at all? Why isn't there "NOTHING".

I will suggest that 'NOTHING' does exist, even right now. And BECAUSE it's NOTHING, WE CAN'T SEE IT!!!

I'm now going to delve back into the concept of Singularities. In Quantum Mechanics, NAKED Singularities CANNOT EXIST!! What do I mean by 'naked'? This 'naked' reference refers to a basic underlying Quantum Mechanical principle that ANY PIECE OF MATTER has an equivilant piece of ANTIMATTER. I.E.; for every entity, there is a COMPLETELY EQUAL non-entity.

Well, what about the fact that I say Nothing exists, yet here we are!?

Shall I point out the SPACE between particles, worlds, and galaxies!!!

Yes, you would be correct in pointing out that there is matter throughout the universe. However - the SPACE between items, even MOLECULES, ATOMS and QUARKS does exist!

We've all heard about the BIG BANG theory. It's a shame that it has become far too (mis)used, and in a derogatory way. The original concept is far too eloquent for words, but here goes.

In the beginning, there was NOTHING - a TRULY 'INFINITE VOID'. BUT, as Quantum Mechanics has pointed out, a 'naked singularity' cannot exist! But...SOMETHING does exist - EVEN IF IT IS NOTHING - this in ITSELF is a STATE OF EXISTANCE!!!

SO - what kind of 'entity' or 'constuct' would be the EXACT OPPOSITTE of an INFINITE VOID and what form and properties would it have?

First, it would need to be INFINITE in it's basic nature, to counteract the INFINITE nature of the VOID.

Since the VOID has NO MASS, our constuct would need to have INFINITE MASS. This mass would include all matter and energy that we see (and even some that we can't see) in the universe today. Matter CANNOT be CREATED OR DESTROYED - IT CAN ONLY BE CHANGED.

Also, since the INFINITE VOID is INFINITE in all directions, then our construct would need to be POINTLIKE in nature. However, it doesn't need to STAY that way, particularly since it has an entire INFINTE VOID to fill!

Can anybody think of anything ELSE that an INFINTE VOID would not have, and that our construct would need to offset this non-entity?

Put your thinking caps on!

Wyn

[Sofie]

Can anybody think of anything ELSE that an INFINTE VOID would not have, and that our construct would need to offset this non-entity?


Does the INFINTE VOID dream when it sleeps? Does it like strawberries with cream?

[Wyn]

Sofie,
The VOID would not - after all, it is 'NOTHING' - but it is open to interpretation as to whether the 'inverse construct' would or wouldn't - I suspect it does, after all, WE (living creatures) are but one of it's 'creations'.

Wyn