I introduced myself to this community last week simply as the (adoptive) single father of an intersexed child, who is now in his 20's.

In the South American culture where he was born, surgery was thankfully not an option. When I adopted him, he knew he was male, although it may not have appeared so to others.

We now live in the US and together we worked on his condition for several years. Today, he is very confortable with his situation, despite the limitations that his condition causes.

As I explained before, I have a PhD in a field related to governmental administrative processes. Recently, I have have been invited to advise on a new ID process (birth certificates, drivers licenses, passports, etc.) for a small country and to be involved in the implementation of that program.

Based on my experiences with my son and observing the situation of several other intersexed persons, I have designed a new administrative approach for handling the whole issue of "sex" and "gender." I believe that I have an opportunity to make a difference in one country and to set an example for others to follow.

I would like to share this approach with people who are affected by the intersex phenomenon and solicit their input as persons who are directly affected by the problems of the traditional approach. Perhaps they can help me to find issues that I may have overlooked...

The following text is fairly long, but please bear with me. The issue is important enough to deserve proper attention. I hope that enough of you will read this so that I can receive some feedback (and criticism)...

Here goes:

A Society of Suitable Contributors

All persons are not equal. Equality is a concept that depends on the scope of the question at hand. Legal systems attempt to provide a basis for equality before the law for all persons. This is often prevented by the economic inequality that allows wealthier persons to afford better legal representation. Electoral systems attempt to create a level playing field for voters and candidates, but this is often foiled by manipulation and segregation — divisive influences that disrupt equality.

As society develops, administrators have been called upon repeatedly to change the paradigms that help to uphold order and a sense of stability in the population. Today, it is necessary for people to be regarded as “suitable contributors.” The differences between persons should not be obstacles to their ability to contribute to society in some meaningful way.

Starting with race, then the male/female issue and later physical disability, society gradually has learned to accept that differences in condition should not in themselves be barriers to an individual’s ability to contribute meaningfully. Clearly, not all conditions allow all types of contributions. For example, with the current level of technology, a wheelchair-bound person cannot as effectively assist in a firefighting unit as a person who does not have that challenge. However, that physically challenged person can be the one who designs the emergency response plan that enables the firefighting unit to have maximum effectiveness, or can manage the 911 call center that directs the response units.

Maintaining a society in which everyone is considered a suitable contributor requires that administrators view everyone as having special needs. “Special needs groups” are not an appendage to “the mainstream,” but instead the mainstream is made up of many special needs groups. The closer we as administrators come to recognizing the reality of this, the easier it will be to channel resources where they are needed most and to maximize the ability of each individual to contribute to the greater good, regardless of their condition.


Sex and Gender—Still Major Barriers

From an administrative perspective, society in general is divided into two main categories, male and female. Most governmental questionnaires include the marker for “sex” or “gender” as the second most important handle after asking for an individual’s name.

Without entering into a discussion on the universal accuracy of the above statement or lack thereof, and leaving completely aside any debate on the real importance of this type of classification, this paper seeks merely to address the growing concern among administrators that the entrenched system seems inadequate to deal with an apparently large portion of society that cannot be easily assigned to one or the other group:—

• Anatomical Intersexuality is a condition said to affect, on average, four in every 100 children born worldwide to a greater or lesser degree. Although it is not our intention to present the many varying forms of intersex in this document, we would nevertheless like to point out that over the past 40 years, surgical efforts to align anatomically and physiologically intersexed individuals with the historical “male” or “female” persona during early childhood have yielded devastating adult results in far too many instances. While surgical intervention may be useful for some medical complications related to intersex, it is no longer acceptable to regard surgical intervention as an administrative solution in dealing with the needs of people facing this condition.

• Gender Dysphoria, considered primarily a psychological condition — but one common also among many victims of chromosomal and genetic ambiguity — even when no anatomical ambiguity appears to be visible, drives many persons to transition from one gender to another once they have the means. However, even when such a transition has been successfully completed, these individuals are still not regarded by society in general as “normal.” From an administrative perspective, there is no room for a separation of “normal” and “abnormal” in a society of “suitable contributors.” Hence, a solution needs to be developed that takes gender dysphoria in stride simply as another human condition, while delivering the appropriate resources to the members of that special needs group.

For administrative purposes, it is simpler to refer to both anatomically intersexed and gender dysphoric groups as “intersexed”—together numbering up to 40% of the general population in some places.

Although homosexuality should probably be mentioned in any discussion on sex and gender, from an administrative standpoint we have chosen to view the body of behaviors that constitute “homosexuality” as representative of a lifestyle choice, rather than a condition. As such, homosexuality — like heterosexuality, bisexuality or celibacy — is a choice that anatomically intersexed or gender dysphoric persons may or may not choose in the same way as those do who consider themselves to be typically “male” or “female.”

The original classification of people into the male or female “gender” or “sex” was never intended to capture an understanding of their lifestyle choices and any new approach that is intended to be more successful should not attempt to do so either. The failings in the traditional approach come from the fact that it ignores relevant human conditions, not choices.

In attempting to decide how to address such relevant conditions, we reflected on the efforts that were made over the years to force those conditions into the existing two-option framework. In so doing, we determined that all of these efforts can be grouped into four main categories:

(a) Correction
(b) Marginalization
(c) Reassignment
(d) Integration

The following is a brief explanation of these efforts:

Correction

This group of efforts covers all methods of addressing non-conforming human conditions by viewing the condition as a problem requiring “repair” or “correction.” Whether such efforts are appropriate or not, the underlying issue that creates an administrative problem is that the individual is not viewed as a completely suitable contributor.

One of the most damaging aspects of the correction efforts is that they usually begin without any input or concurrence from the individual who is deemed to require such correction. By the time the person is actually able to contribute to the outcome of the corrective measures, the majority of the process has become irreversible.

From an administrative position, this level of invasiveness into an individual’s right of self-determination is unacceptable: If an issue involving the long-term physical condition of an individual requires a decision to be made in a timeframe that is not life threatening, then currently accepted administrative principles demand that the individual be given the opportunity to personally make that decision or at least make an informed contribution to it.


Marginalization

In many cultures, including those where the other efforts are practiced, marginalization is a serious issue that anatomically intersexed and gender dysphoric persons are forced to deal with as an everyday reality. However, we are using the term marginalization in this section to refer specifically in the context of systematic approaches that exist in various places to deal with the existence of these conditions.

When anatomically intersexed or gender dysphoric persons are accepted as a part of society, and are even accorded a commonly accepted position (such as an officially recognized “third gender”), the roles that they are often allowed to have in making them “contributors” to that society force them to exist on the very fringes of the mainstream. Sometimes, mystical or religious roles are assigned to them, whether they wish to have these or not. In order to survive, they find themselves forced to accept behavior they did not choose.

As a result, these efforts, while they may not be as physically invasive as the correction methods used in other cultures, still contravene the principles of individual choice that today’s social administrative structures seek to uphold.


Reassignment

This area covers the group of efforts in which the individual can make a choice, but is forced to choose from a specific and often very limited range of options. Sometimes, the options that anatomically intersexed or gender dysphoric persons find to be most closely aligned to their persona comes with social limitations or even expectations that they would prefer not to be faced with. The mere fact that the person is being forced to make a change is the issue that modern administrators must deal with.

Why should anyone be forced to make such fundamental bodily or existential changes in order to be allowed to make their unique contribution to the greater good?


Integration

Very few societies have found ways to accommodate the differences that anatomical intersexuality and gender dysphoria bring to people’s lives. However, the anatomically intersexed and gender dysphoric persons who live in those places find themselves able to make their contribution to society freely, without having to “pass” as something or someone that they either are not or cannot completely be.


So what have we learned?

The integration approach seems to be the best model from an administrative standpoint.
But can it be realistically merged into a formal, workable, technically manageable format?

From what we have learned over the past four decades, we believe it can be done.


The Thought Process

For almost half a century, doctors have argued that “gender” is more a matter of nurture than nature — that so-called “masculine” or “feminine” behaviors are primarily created by socialization rather than biology. While this concept is now being disputed to some degree by modern research in genetics and endocrinology, there is no reason for us as administrators to dispute that socialization does have a significant impact on a “gender outcome.”

In deliberating the issue, we have determined that our error of the past resides in the interchangeable use of the terms “gender” and “sex.” We now find that separating the two terms, as they should be, so that “gender” refers specifically to behaviors, whereas “sex” refers specifically to anatomy, we automatically create a far wider range of options for social persona classification and grouping.

Is it difficult to imagine a person with historically “male” anatomy having a stereotypically “feminine” character? Of course not. Most of us have friends who are like that to some degree. Many of them are successful designers, actors, artists, doctors, lawyers, etc. In the following chart (see next page), such a person would be found in the “D” quadrant, while the stereotypical “man” and “woman” would be in the “C” and “A” quadrants respectively.

The concept behind this new system is that each person’s range is as large as the outermost circle of the chart, however, the center of that circle shifts depending on the individual. A person with a fully developed, historically “female” anatomy who has a stereotypically “masculine” character and works as a firefighter, may have the center of that persona-circle in the “B4” area, however, since the circle is very large, it will overlap into the nurturing, stereotypically “feminine” area as well; perhaps, however, not as much as a person (regardless of body-type) who chooses to work as a kindergarten teacher.

A person who is completely ambiguous, anatomically and behaviorally, could be considered “neutral” and would therefore have their center in the “N” area. Nevertheless, with a persona-circle that covers the entire range presented, onlookers can expect to see both stereotypically feminine and masculine characteristics, as well as anatomical choices (via surgery or otherwise) that reflect the person’s desire to capture their full potential without necessarily sticking to a single fixed historical body format in all of its features.

http://www.bodieslikeours.org/sentinel.gif

Advances in modern medicine have provided numerous avenues for individuals to align, if they so choose, their anatomy with their behaviors if they find that such alteration will enable them to contribute more meaningfully to society in the way that they wish.


When to Classify

Since behaviors are as much a result of socialization as biology, we see no need to make a final classification of the individual until they are ready to make an impact on society. In our considered opinion, the appropriate age for preliminary classification would be 16 years of age, while final classification could take place at age 21.

There is really no need, from an administrative perspective, to classify newborns as “male” or “female” within the first few days of birth, as we have been practicing until now. In issuing a birth certificate, the persona classification is not relevant.

Since the chart above provides 17 standardized and administratively acceptable persona-centers, it places far less pressure on parents who normally feel the need to force their children to conform to one of two “norm patterns” when the child’s behavior, or even anatomy, appears to be deviating from such patterns.

At age 16, when the time comes for the preliminary classification, the parents and the child will be supported by doctors, guidance counselors and psychologists in making the choice, which the child will be free to review again at age 21.

If this system is implemented, it will let children grow up as “children” rather than as “boys” and “girls,” which terms will only be applied to children who at age 16 choose character centers within the “C” and “A” quadrants respectively. Children who select centers in the “D” and “B” quadrants will be referred to as “young intersexuals” until the language of the country catches up with the system and provides an alternative shorthand expression. At age 21, when the individuals review and finalize their selections, “boys” will be referred to as “men,” “girls” will be referred to as “women” and “young intersexuals” will become “intersexuals.”

Of course, parents will nurture their children according to the character they see emerging, and according to the expectations they wish to vest in their child’s future. Hence when two of their children reach to age 16, the one who is classified as a “boy” in group “C2” may be attracted to a career as a restaurant chef while the one who is classified as a “girl” in group “A1” may wish to become a demolition-blaster. During the children’s formative years there would have been no basis for discouraging their ambitions or predilections due to “gender-inappropriateness,” as often happens today — for example by telling the child with the historical male physique that cooking is “girly” or the one with the historical female physique that blowing things up is not “ladylike.”


So Where Does That Leave the ‘Government Questionnaire’?

We administrators need to differentiate what information we actually need when collecting social data. If we need to know about the person’s anatomy, we should ask for their “sex,” if we want to know about character, we should ask for “gender.” But we have not been doing this.

For example, for determining in which prison to incarcerate a criminal, “gender” may be the more important issue than “sex,” with an internal subdivision within the institution for separating inmates by anatomy. In selecting which customs officer should do a body search on a suspicious traveler, “sex” might be more important than “gender.”

Instead of stating on a passport that a person is simply “male” or “female” it will say “C3” or “A4” or “B2” or “D1” or any other of the 17 possibilities. Once the system becomes entrenched, people will know immediately what they can expect from that particular persona, anatomically and behaviorally.

As people make changes to their anatomy by exercising surgical options, they can have themselves reclassified appropriately, without anyone really caring where their new position on the chart falls vis-à-vis their old one.

For administrative purposes, it is simpler to refer to both anatomically intersexed and gender dysphoric groups as “intersexed”—together numbering up to 40% of the general population in some places.

No. Intersex is about shame, secrecy, and unwanted genital surgeries and not about gender. It is true that more people with an intersex condition have questions about their gender than ‘normal’ people. But asking yourself questions doesn’t mean that you are gender dysphoric or that you belong to a third sex.

Dessens, Slijper & Drop (2004, not yet published) did research on 229 people with CAH, all raised as girls, 205 from birth on and 24 reasssigned (mostly< 1year). 8 of those girls developed gender dysphoria, 5 of them (2.2%) changed to a male gender role.

Research by Mazur (2004, not yet published) on 36 people with PAIS raised as girls, showed that 2 of them (5%) changed to a male gender role. He also did research on 160 people with CAIS, all raised as girls, and none of them changed to a male gender role.

With 5ARD and 17BHSD it is extremely difficult to have a correct sexassignment at birth. A review by Cohen-Kettenis (2004, not yet published) shows that from 111 people with 5ARD and raised as girls, 64 (56%) changed to a male gender role. The same research shows that from 47 people with 17BHSD raised as girls 20 (47%) changed to a male gender role. The problem with 5ARD and 17BHSD is that these conditions are very rare and that many of the affected people live in geographic locations (e.g. Dominican Republic, Gaza Strip) where a male gender role has a much higher status than a female gender role. It is uncertain whether their decision to change to a male gender role is because of their feelings or the higher social status.

Of a group of 24 people with a micropenis raised as girls, none changed to a male gender role.

The review by Cohen-Kettenis also shows that there is no clear relation between the ambiguity of the genitals and the chance that a child will change to a male gender role.

I don’t have recent numbers for people with an intersex condition raised as boys, except for a group of 33 people (44,XX CAH) who were raised as boys. 3 of them were gender dyshoric (12%) and one of them was gender dysphoric AND decided to change to a female gender role.

It is obvious that as a percentage of the population of people with an intersex condition, changing to the other gender role is more common than in the population of people without an intersex condition (female to male transexualism -> 1:30,000). By the way, those people who change to the opposite gender role are returning to their original (and at birth not correct recognized) gender. That is the reason that, according to the DSM IV, it is impossible for a person with an intersex condition to be diagnosed with transsexualism.

But even when we have questions about our gender and even when some of us change gender, that doesn’t mean we identify ‘in-between’. Recent research by Richter-Appelt shows that heterosexual women with an intersex condition do not differ in gender identity from hetero (or homo-) sexual female controls. Her research also shows that heterosexual men with an intersex condition do not differ from hetero- (or homo-) sexual men. That means that even when people with an intersex condition FEEL they are different, they actually behave as any other man or woman. The point is that it is not possible to know how it feels to be a woman if you are a man: you only know how YOU feel. So, when someone says 'I feel 30 percent male and 70 percent male', he/she claims to know how other people feel. Of course it is possible that you see some male characteristics and some female characteristics in yourself, but many of those characteristics are only social constructs: man are brave, women are soft.

Instead of making more boxes we should work on a world were everybody can have his or her own characteristics without being classified by others as male or female. BTW, that is not the same as a genderless society.

Groeten, Miriam

PS. The numbers you use for the prevalence of intersex conditions are not correct, but I guess this is because of your definition of intersex conditions.

I believe Sentinel007 meant well and it is good that any effort to break the "strangle-hold" of "traditional (moral) sexual dichotomy is made. As for me, I get sick of all the research, "under the microscope" evaluation, and my self and others being put up for "gender adoption". Gender dysphoria, intersex, transsex, bisex, intersex is not gender dysphoric, transsex is not intersex, bisex is this, not that, hetero this, not that.....Give me a break!! Dammit!!
Given all that:
Me: An intersexed gender dysphoric hypogonadic white caucasian german-american middle-class pseudo-hermaphroditic "male" transsexual female!! F**K!!:confused: :rolleyes: :mad:

AND, If intersex is so different, how come there's so many of us, that we've been around since the dawn of humankind... are we really "different" or just another part of the human race that's been "ghetto-ized", like the other "abnormal" Ss!! or "races"

quote:
"Instead of making more boxes we should work on a world were everybody can have his or her own characteristics without being classified by others as male or female.....JAWOHL!! AND Without Being "normalized" .
...this is the way it SHOULD and COULD be......but it's the same ole' story isn't it? The real problem is the concept of Normalcy.....the view that in order to have an "orderly" society, there must be social "norms" and behavioural standards....Why??....because most people cannot exercise self-control and society for all it's technological advances is still in the Stone Age when it comes to humanism, simple respect, compassion, and acceptance of "differences".....makes me sick. Bleccchhh!!:confused:
It's a sad lament and a shameful thing for this world that a "different" person has to "fight" for their acceptance of intrinsic self and/or be looked upon (AND abused) as an "other" by the "chosen ones":rolleyes:

PS: Anybody ever hear of and/or see the movie THX 1138 with Robert Duvall (1971)?

http://www.geocities.com/Area51/4456/thx1138.html

Dana

It wouldn't work. It's stigmatizing from the get go as it pronounces differences when there aren't any. It's marginalizing because it's divisive. In that sense, it almost reeks of a caste system.

Classifications outside of the binary aren't necessary and even if attempted would be adding an entire new layer of stigmatization on top of the issues IS people already go through due to unwanted surgeries. Let little girls be little girls and little boys be little boys. If adults want to live and announce themselves to the world as neuter, genderless, polygendered, or a third gender, that's fine. It's a wonderful world where we can identify ourselves how we want--as adults.

Trying to classify differences assumes that intersex is primarily an issue of gender when it is not. As Mariam put it, and most others do as well---it's the shame, secrecy and trauma of surgical reinforcement without our consent.

The third gender fallacy is the product of over-imaginative doctors who use it as a tool to convince parents to consent (without being fully informed) for surgery on their baby. It's a tool for religious right wingers to further stigmatize us as a fundraising tool for their own sick mission of hate and bigotry.
Betsy

Yes, I apologize for my emotional rhetoric; despite good intentions and obvious laborious efforts,, the "classification" meant to "liberate" would as Betsy pointed out be just a 'caste system'......multiple words and multiple letters to describe where one "is"........and that's why I made reference to the movie THX 1138.....with it's sex and behaviour police.

Besides, the system would be a beaurocratic nightmare, as a person's persona changes with childhood into adulthood, the time required for the beaurocracy to process the new ID, the person would be stuck with "old one" and (like anyone who's dealth with the DMV) may be subject to "proof"....from who? the intersexed and/or gender dysphoric ? or an outside "authority", psychologist, doctor, or judge? Would the change in "status" require meetings with how many entities before certified?
I think it would add to the stigmatizing..
"Here comes C3D what does "he?, she?, it? "want to be" now"? I wonder if that were to be a common "comment" by "offficials".

PS: Would this policy require legalization (as I'm sure it must), the voters and politicians would have to approve it.....Our fate would once again be in the hands of people who don't/won't understand.

Sorry, but this coming from the "horse's mouth"



C3PO alias Dana:rolleyes:

Thank you very much Miriam!

I agree wholeheartedly with what you are saying, in fact I think we are "vehemently agreeing" with each other in principle.

My view is that almost everyone is to some degree a deviation of the stereotypical "male" or "female." However, it *IS* necessary from an administrative point of view to have persona categories. Please remember that administration is not legislation... it's not about whether a thing is good or bad or right or wrong. Administration deals with the channeling of appropriate resources to areas of need.

Unless one can properly label an area of need it is not possible to channel the resources efficiently (or even effectively). For emergency response, for example, administrators need to know that an incident is a HAZMAT situation in order to be able to channel the appropriate resouces to the site. If the label "HAZMAT" did not exist, how would we communicate properly about what is needed?

That does not mean that a "HAZMAT" situation is 'better' or 'worse' than a bombing incident. It is just a different area of need which requires a different mix of resources.

The new approach I am proposing does not define any type of persona as 'better' or 'worse' but accepts that there are different types, each with their own resouce requirements... My approach is certainly not intended to capture the different physiologial forms of intersex or the different psychological forms of gender dysphoria, in the same way as "HAZMAT" does not, in itself (as a term), capture whether we are dealing with a radioactive, chemical, biological or other form of hazardous materials incident.

At the same time, I live in New York, and I am painfully aware of the recent incident where a gender dysphoric person was arrested for trying to use the "men's" room at Grand Central Station, only to then spend 23 hours in jail and be indicted on 4 counts before a judge two days later... The real underlying problem was that this ID was not in sync with his gender identity... (I won't go into detail on this travesty of justice...)

My view is that if my new classification approach were implemented, this person would have had "C4" on his driver's license instead of "F." That would have entitled him to use the "men's" room, regardless of his genitals. If he has still been arrested, he would have been placed in an appropriate cell, instead of having to be anxious over whether he might have been raped... More than likely, the term "men's room" would not even exist in my world... Restrooms would be restrooms (there is no administrative need to classify restrooms by "sex" or "gender")...

The point is that once you have reasonable flexibility in classification, you can than insititute proper policies to address the needs of the various groups. Creating adequate classification options (instead of just having two) forces admiistrators to resist using classifiers where they are not needed -- like on restroom doors... and on birth certificates for that matter.

Please continue to share your thoughts.

Thank you.

However, it *IS* necessary from an administrative point of view to have persona categories.
I can’t see why that would be necessary. In the past Germany had the categories jew (with a yellow star) and homosexual (with a pink triangle). In South Africa they had the categories white (slegs vir blanke), coloured and black. I think deviding people in categories is extremely dangerous. But please explain why you think we need gender categories.

More than likely, the term "men's room" would not even exist in my world...
No way! As long as men pee standing up they need their own men’s room! ;)

Groeten, Miriam

Hi Dana,

Me: An intersexed gender dysphoric hypogonadic white caucasian german-american middle-class pseudo-hermaphroditic "male" transsexual female!! F**K!!

Sorry, intersexed and transsexual is an impossible combination, something like a pear-shaped banana ;) If you ever meet a medic who says that this combination is possible you should tell him/her that he/she is a quack.

Miriam

The problem is gender phobia...and I see this 'plan' as almost reinforcing it. Classifications and expectations are the problem. Society doesn't expect a girl to have a big clit so therefore it must be amputated from her in order for society to "recognize" her as a girl. The girl herself doesn't have a say in the matter and the protocal assumes her gender identity won't match, which is wrong from the start because you've never given the girl a chance to express her gender without mutilating surgery. It presupposes gender as being a reflection of our genitals, as occured in the bathroom incident you cite.

Hence when two of their children reach to age 16, the one who is classified as a “boy” in group “C2” may be attracted to a career as a restaurant chef while the one who is classified as a “girl” in group “A1” may wish to become a demolition-blaster. During the children’s formative years there would have been no basis for discouraging their ambitions or predilections due to “gender-inappropriateness,” as often happens today — for example by telling the child with the historical male physique that cooking is “girly” or the one with the historical female physique that blowing things up is not “ladylike.”

Again, this is a problem of a gender-phobic society and not one that will be solved with a caste system. Suppose some quack comes out with a study that says C4s are more likely to be professional ball players. Soon, there will be a rush in trying to become "C4" because of our weird adoration of sports figures.

The simple solution is to change society, not to add more labels---leave the baby born with an intersex condition alone (without surgery and phobic reinforcements), raise them boy or girl in the most likely outcome and understand that sometimes initial guesses are wrong.

The energy would be better spend ending genital mutilations, and overturning laws like those in Texas that would seek to define gender based upon chromosomes or in Kansas where they determine gender based upon what's on the original birth certificate.

Betsy

Sorry, but for me, reading about all the proposed catagories is something akin to the "brain freeze" that happens when one slurps a icy drink too fast through a straw. It's painful.

I don't want to sound too anti-intellectual, but I believe that most systems of social catagories are about power. Both "binary" and "caste" systems of catagories are imperfect tools of social domination. Often well meaning reformers only further state power in the end, as with the establishment of the modern system of mental hospitals. As an example of catagories, Foucault cites Borges list of animals. It's widely cited on the Internet, and I quote an example:

"Borges' Animals
In "The Analytical Language of John Wilkins," Borges describes 'a certain Chinese Encyclopedia,' the Celestial Emporium of Benevolent Knowledge, in which it is written that animals are divided into:

those that belong to the Emperor,
embalmed ones,
those that are trained,
suckling pigs,
mermaids,
fabulous ones,
stray dogs,
those included in the present classification,
those that tremble as if they were mad,
innumerable ones,
those drawn with a very fine camelhair brush,
others,
those that have just broken a flower vase,
those that from a long way off look like flies.

This classification has been used by many writers. It "shattered all the familiar landmarks of his thought" for Michel Foucault. "


Peter

This entire thread exemplifies the fact that the world-wide way of thinking has at its core an analytical approach to body variant, gender variant, (or both) human beings. The standard methodology for these psycho-social/medical/scientific conclusions is the concept of comparing certain phenomena to existing so-called axioms of truth. And it seems that everybody has their own idea about what is what and what is not. What is IS and TG/TS/GID and how and when does the concept of gender and sense of self play out and manifest itself in each. To me, this whole approach is like a maelstrom, a never ending series of analyses and consequent conclusions that, in actuality, only bring up more questions, confusion, and controversy. So what is the real truth, then? Did not some of the ancients have a s/w better understanding of this when they observed and (not by analysis, but by synthesis) concluded that the observable person of body/gender variance was the truth itself....and thus, the body/gender variant person was easily accepted into the mainstream society at that time and acknowledged for their gender presentation. It is notable that IS and gender variant peoples in such soceties did not have volumes of "data" written about them, as is the case now. And were not "scrutinized" and "normalized".and/or ostrasized.
And, paradoxically, I have noted that we make conclusions about ourselves as IS using the established "standards" of the same medical/psychosocial system that we are in disagreement with and disdain.
I did it to myself for decades; being a Science Nerd, I rejected the truth of my own self in favor of established norms and "popular way of thought"
I think that we all wish to be accepted as real human beings and not as codified/stratified biological/psychosexual entities.
I reject any perhaps well-intentioned and (especially so) ill-intentioned systems that further sub-divide my reality into compartments subject to analysis by those (quack! quack!) "who know better" about myself than I. The only label I really like is my first name (which I legally chose) and human being....to hell with all the others.:mad:

Race has certainly not been eliminated as an administrative classifier... regarless of what people may think. Least of all in the U.S. What has changed is the *legal approach* to race.... Whether society in general will catch on or not (and when) remains to be seen.

Again, I would like to emphasize that we are not dealing here with a legislative issue, but with an administrative one. It is folly to pretend that everyone is the same. As a black person myself, I know that the only thing that has changed is the policy regarding race. Race EXISTS. Denying it is unnecessary and unhelpful... the same applies to intersex and gender dysphoria.

When I was developing this approach to gender and sex, I interviewed over 30 intersexed and gender dysphoric persons. After I had my intitial draft, I put it in front of 5 focus groups of 10 intersexed and gender dysphoric persons each. Hence, I had contributions from over 80 people who are affected by the problem. Needless to say, they were all located in the NY, NJ, CT Tristate Area.

My purpose in bringing this here is to get a wider audience and a greater number of comments... I hope you will continue to give me your feedback.

Let me share some of the observations made by my initial contributors:

• The main reason for the problems faced by intersexed persons is the pressure that their parents FEEL when a visibly intersexed child is born... Frequently this is made even greater by doctors, but not always. Parents do not what their children to be disadvantaged in any way and they FEEL that if a child does not fall into the two-option spectrum, they will be at a disadvantage... (it's all very subjective)...

• If parents (and others at the crucial time of birth) did not have to make any "decision" and try to guess what's in the child's best interest, at a time when they could not possibly know what that is, most children (not just intersexed ones) would be much better off in the long run...

• As an intersexed child grows up, trying to grapple with the "mislabeling" that was done at birth, even if there was no surgical invasion, they also have to constantly face repeated affronts to their sensibilities: questions such as "Is this your little girl?" passing over their heads, and seeing their parents trying to struggle to explain to a total stranger what the problem is, or WORSE, simply replying "Yes," when the child knows very well that he is a boy... It would help if it were to be "politically incorrect" to say "boy" or "girl" before the child has reached an age where he or she can participate in the decision...


These and other views from intersexed persons, as well as my own observations while my son was growing up, helped me to form some of the concepts I have outlined in my approach.

As we go along in this forum, I will share more of the views I have received so far. But, right now, please tell me what you think of the three points above?

By the way, Miriam, the fact that persons with a penis (that does not mean "men" necessarily) pee standing up is not enough reason for denying people who sit to pee access to a restroom. The way people pee and what percentage of them pee in what way, at least from an administrative standpoint, only means that you have different types of booths in restrooms for different ways of peeing... It's about what resources are needed for different uses, not about who has a right to use the resources (administration not legislation).

As you know, in so-called "men's" rooms today, the urinals that are used by those who stand to pee are frequently separated from the thrones where people sit (not only to pee).

How many times have women agonized -- at stadiums and other public places where large crowds gather -- over the fact that they need to stand in line and wait for long periods to get into "their" restroom while the "men's" room next door is totally underutilized. The correct way to separate restrooms should therefore not be by gender but more logically by use. Hence you can have Urinals for those who want to pee standing and Thrones for everything else. In some places, both the thrones and the urinals might be in the same "room" but perhaps in different booths or sections, while in other places the thrones and the urinals might be in different rooms altogether...

I frequently come accross this ridiculous situation: I stop at a gas station that has two restrooms, each with one throne in it. They can both be used by only one person at a time, and just because one door has a "male" pictogram on it, you see three women standing in line in front of the other door (or vice versa) while the other room remains empty. If instead of defining one throne room as a male one and the other as a female one, the owners of the gas station would just put "Restroom" on both doors... you get the point...

The bottom line is that restrooms do not need to be separated by gender or sex, just like other utilitarian places and issues... Let's face it, even the U.S. managed to do away with the unnecessary separation of restrooms by race... a separation by gender (or sex) is just as unnecessary.

Sentinel, where'd you meet all these intersex people? A group of 10 in a room is damn near historic, so please share some details about how you did it.

Betsy

Dear Sentinel007,

You seem to ignore a remark I made in my first post:

Miriam wrote:

But even when we have questions about our gender and even when some of us change gender, that doesn’t mean we identify ‘in-between’. Recent research by Richter-Appelt shows that heterosexual women with an intersex condition do not differ in gender identity from hetero (or homo-) sexual female controls. Her research also shows that heterosexual men with an intersex condition do not differ from hetero- (or homo-) sexual men. That means that even when people with an intersex condition FEEL they are different, they actually behave as any other man or woman. The point is that it is not possible to know how it feels to be a woman if you are a man: you only know how YOU feel. So, when someone says 'I feel 30 percent male and 70 percent male', he/she claims to know how other people feel. Of course it is possible that you see some male characteristics and some female characteristics in yourself, but many of those characteristics are only social constructs: man are brave, women are soft.

If there is no method to decide in which category a child, an adolescent or an adult falls, your classification system is useless. If your system is based on how people see themselves, it would be useless to record this information because that would mean that people can changes to another category, let say, each month.

The main reason for the problems faced by intersexed persons is the pressure that their parents FEEL when a visibly intersexed child is born... Frequently this is made even greater by doctors, but not always. Parents do not what their children to be disadvantaged in any way and they FEEL that if a child does not fall into the two-option spectrum, they will be at a disadvantage... (it's all very subjective)...

No, I guess you have spoken the wrong people. The main problem is that we were not informed about our condition. Sometimes we blame our parents for that, but more often we will blame the medical professionals. But besides that, the behavior of parents will not change only by using a classification with more tickboxes.

If parents (and others at the crucial time of birth) did not have to make any "decision" and try to guess what's in the child's best interest, at a time when they could not possibly know what that is, most children (not just intersexed ones) would be much better off in the long run...

They still have to make a decision: ABCD or N. Why do you want me to tell other people about my intersex condition? Why do you want to force my parents to tell others about my intersex condition? I’m very open about having AIS because I want to change our treatment. But that doesn’t mean I identify intersexed. There is a difference between to have and to be: I have an intersex condition but that doesn’t mean that I am an intersexual. Have you ever called someone with the syndrome of Down a ‘Downer’. Of course not! But that would be the result of your classification system: He, look, there goes a D4! You assume your classification will change people, but that will not happen. And when people have changed, we don’t need your classification system!

As an intersexed child grows up, trying to grapple with the "mislabeling" that was done at birth, even if there was no surgical invasion, they also have to constantly face repeated affronts to their sensibilities: questions such as "Is this your little girl?" passing over their heads, and seeing their parents trying to struggle to explain to a total stranger what the problem is, or WORSE, simply replying "Yes," when the child knows very well that he is a boy... It would help if it were to be "politically incorrect" to say "boy" or "girl" before the child has reached an age where he or she can participate in the decision...

If a child looks like a girl, raise it as a girl. She might have an enlarged clitoris, but everybody will say she is a girl. If a child looks like a boy, raise it as boy. He might have a small penis, but everybody will say it is a boy. When you start to label those very few children with an intersex condition as B or D (or with an N) while everyone else in school is C or A you stigmatize that child and that will do more harm than calling someone a boy while it is possible that ‘he’ will change to a female gender role in the future.

The bottom line is that restrooms do not need to be separated by gender or sex, just like other utilitarian places and issues... Let's face it, even the U.S. managed to do away with the unnecessary separation of restrooms by race... a separation by gender (or sex) is just as unnecessary.

So... WHY do you want to record that kind of information? You still haven’t answered that question.

BTW. If you ever come to the Netherlands you really have to visit one of the major festivals or a rock concert because then you will see that Dutch women can pee standing upright:

http://www.plastuitcompany.com/eng/intro.html

http://www.plastuitcompany.com/ned/images/p_wc1.gif

And the good news is that we don’t need a classification of sex and/or gender for that. But, of course, that is quite similar to what has happened with restrooms and race (I assume you don’t have to show an ID card when you go to the loo : This is Sentinel007 – Black (87,5%) - so he is allowed to use this multi-racial restroom)

Groeten, Miriam

PS. This will be my last post on this topic because I already made my point: I don’t want your system. Especially since it doesn’t work at all. I have ÀIS and that means that I have, what you call, a ‘Delivering body’ with a ‘Historical Female Physical’. I’m a mother of two daughters and that would make me at least for a bit a ‘Nurturing Character’. But I’m also an entrepreneur; I own five companies and I drive a Volvo S80-2.9, which makes me a kind of Defending Character’which in your scheme is a ‘traditional Masculine Stereotype’. So I’m not sure whether I’m a B or an A in your system. And more... My sex is completely female and let’s assume my gender is only slightly feminine. That would make me an A4. But there are also A4’s who have an extremely nurturing character and a rather androgynous body. Sorry, your classification simply doesn’t work.

Case closed.

In regarding gender issues amongst intersexed and gender dysphoric persons in relation to Sentinel007's interviews:

Are we talking gender dysphoric as in transsexual/transgenndered non-IS?

I know of no transsexual (who intrinsically views his/herself as man or woman) that would want to be"outed" by an ID that proclaims otherwise.

Although I am labeled both (IS and TS) by some people (quack, quack) , I am labeled one and not the other by others....ironically , when I first was adamantly told by my endo that I had Klinefelters (later diagnosis modified after karyotype came), he (and another doctor I have) did not consider me intersexed because I had no detectable ambiguous genitalia or internal mixed organs, even though (at that time) I may have had extra X chromosome and mixed male/female body characteristics. ( I think my ultrasound was done incorrectly; I get cramps and spotting some "times", but that's been "poo-poo-ed away" as psycho-somatic:confused: ) But another doctor regards me as intersexed and "transgendered", rather than transsexual. Society, by established definition regards me as a transsexual, regardless of how I was before and that I had already been hormonally changed (as in transsexual). The whole thing is so wretchedly confusing if I were to rely upon these conclusions. And based upon these " experts' " interpretations, I would get a "mashed potato" mix of A-D numbers.

My whole point is that any classification is and will be subject to interpretation/judiciation by others. One person will see a C3 (or whatever) as something else, a C4 or maybe something different. And to iterate: who will do the classifying of the "subject's persona/body....the subject? or the "administrator"....who will certify it?...I don't think the subject, with this system, would be"allowed" to self-affirm their own selves, as I am not "allowed" to self-affirm my own sense of self within the "administrators" and "officials" within the medical/psycho-social and public systems. Sentinel, you have good intentions, but this system will exacerbate an already misinformed and confused society when contemplatin/regarding body and gender variant peoples. The real answer is as I mentioned in my last post. The problem is not an administrative/legal one...it is a social one, generated from misleading, selfish, and befuddled belief systems that have established their "way of thought" as the "right and only one" based upon a very limited perception of the reality and truth of Life.


PS: Peter "hit the nail on the head" with his quote:

I believe that most systems of social catagories are about power. Both "binary" and "caste" systems of catagories are imperfect tools of social domination.

Dana:( (sometimes so weary of this world)

Among other things, I teach people about measurement. The only reason to define categories of something, is because you want to analyze them across those categories. Generally, every measurement is done for a purpose - such as to make a decision.

Sentinel, you stated that the categories are to help allocate resources correctly. What resources would have different allocation based on these gender categories?

While an interesting intellectual exercise, I find your system impractical, because there are too many possible categories to accurately include everyone. In my overview of intersexed "conditions", I have 27 types listed, each of which has many possible variations or degrees, and I also acknowledged that I didn't include many rarer possibilities. However you try to lump them into a smaller number of boxes, you'll invariably associate some people with a box they feel is incorrect, inaccurate, and possibly insulting.

So, what's the point? Why not take the opposite approach and be truly unbiased - make no category for gender at all. The ultimate in non-discrimination!

Glenn

Cut and Paste:


Glenn
Ursine Member

Since when did you become a bear, Glenn? You're too gentle (Gentle Ben?) and nice for that.:)

Dana:D

I believe that Sentinel007 on the level of everyday experience is bringing up many examples of real issues that gender queer people face everyday. The other day, in a local progressive street magazine, they had a feature article about people they called "quirky alone". The article mentioned something about "metrosexual", which is a general term that they said included a large segment of the population. I think that whether it is called "quirky alone", "metrosexual", "intersex and gender dysphoria" it refers to a group of people who are gender rebels. But that said, being a gender rebel does not necessarily make one intersexed or transsexual.
I don't believe that either "gender" or "sex" exist as linear continuums. So making them x,y axis does not do anything for me. The project seems extremely shaky on theoretical grounds. I understand that Anne Fausto-Sterling has distanced herself from her original five sexes on a continuum theory. Turn of the twentieth century theories that some homosexuals were a "third sex" faded away as the twentieth century progressed. I have great sympathy with breaking the binary systems of "sex" and "gender". I think that intersex and transsexual people should be given legal status as "intersex" or "transsexual" if we want such status. But breaking the binary, is not the same thing as believing in a continuum. A problem that I have with discussions of gender, is that they generally use the most stereo-typical terms, like "interior decorator" and "soldier" as occupations. I think that women are breaking down gender stereotypes at a rate that make discussions of the issue seem, well..... so 1970's.
I think that "male" and "female" are useful for some things, like keeping track of monies spent on student athletic programs to insure equality. I like the idea of not having "male" and "female" on driver's licenses. As far as bathrooms go, I like the idea of unisex bathrooms in small facilities, and adding many more women's bathrooms to large facilities along with some unisex bathrooms.

Peter

Hi Sentinel,
I think I can see some meaning in what you're trying to do. It might be usefull as a basis for making decisions, but I wouldn't like to see it used with real people, at schools etc. I think you will have to modify and refine your model because there are far too many people that won't fit into either of the categories. What about people with disabilities, physical and neurological? Many IS-people have multiple issues, for some being IS may just be a "side effect".

At 16 y.o. I had already serious emotional problems and may have chosen the classification I was expected to. At age 24 I was a wreck and would just have walked out.

Sofie

(Thank you for trying :) )

Sofie brings up a very good point. People evolve socially and psychologically from childhood way into adulthood. The systemized classification of gender and persona would have to be constantly modified/updated. And there would be no guarantee that just because (for example) I would be "qualified" to enter said restroom by virtue of my "ID", that others doing the same would approve of my presence. Especially when they "find out":eek: . Knowing how society is, there might even be the chance of a "card-key" system for bathroom entry; again, I believe there would be protest, for this system would not change peoples' mind-sets about what they would still construe as "not normal".

However, I realize that you (Sentinel) have put forth good-faith effort in this and have/have had the humanity to adopt and raise an intersexed child. I honestly feel you really are sincere, well-meaning and with a good heart.

Your system has some value, perhaps, on a statistical level; maybe applicable to "gender queer" studies OR yet more equatible: wherein the psycho-sexual evolution of ALL people (given that input data is truthful) could be elucidated. I believe that without societal restraints and taboos, one would see a lot more psycho-sexual/persona and gender fluidity/variability in this world. It was once pointed out out that some homophobic persons may BE , in fact , themselves (latently) that very same thing which they fear and hate. It would show everybody that as one person here at BLO once stated : Things are not really what they seem to be.....or what they claim/profess to be.

Value on a practical level in society: unfortunately not: as others have pointed out: being intersexed and/or gender dysphoric entails so very many life experiences and variables: social, psychological, biological/physiological, and spiritual. Have you ever heard of the Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle in modern physics....I believe that humans are like that (on a life condition and psycho-social/emotional level)... similar and yet in a very unique way. No one system of analysis/classification can fathom such a vast universe of humanity ( which is in a constant state of flux) in a short time to: not only be applicable to understanding where one "fits in" and is "allowed" to fit in; BUT also to elcuidate such a phenomena to some people, whose minds and hearts may be forever closed to such.
One may be legally and administratively permitted to interact in some public function, but , as we all know: rules and legal rights are broken and challenged by people all the time, even by those who claim to steadfastly adhere to their own credos and society's laws.

I hope that the various critiques here do not dissuade you in learning more of us and others, or cause you to feel distanced. I, as well as others here, have only "told it like it is".

Sincerely,

Ms Dana Gold

This is an example: despite law and administration policy that promotes non-discrimination of gender variance school children, gender phobia (as aptly referred to by Betsy) will override it. And here in so-called liberal California.
PS: This city is maybe 20 miles from where I live.

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1108815/posts

The genderphobes are afraid that said students may sue "over any little thing", BUT the law actually implies that no student should be discriminated against for displaying gender dysphoria "characteristics",whether by staff, students or otherwise denied fair treatment.

:rolleyes:

I am sorry to have lost Miriam in this discussion. Nevertheless, I believe that an important aspect of the system eluded her, as evidenced by these statements:

Originally posted by miriam

They still have to make a decision: ABCD or N. Why do you want me to tell other people about my intersex condition? Why do you want to force my parents to tell others about my intersex condition?


Parents are not the ones expected to make the decision at any time in the process I have developed. Rather, it is the individual who is expected to make an intitial choice at age 16, which is to be confirmed at age 21. At birth parents have no way of knowing for sure what the child's persona will develop into. At age 16, the child has a much better idea and by age 21 the child should know for sure (of course, there will always be exceptions)...

Miriam, regarding your own persona, you should pick what you feel suits YOU best... always, bearing in mind that if you were to pick, for example, "A2," that only refers to the CENTER of your persona circle. Your persona circle is as large as the outer circle of the chart. In other words, it includes all of the other areas you referred to... you may have missed that point when you read my approach.

Betsy, you would be surprised how easy it is to get an intersex group together if you network via the doctor's office. My son is a patient of one of the most recognized specialists in the field in New York City. This doctor has over 200 intersexed and gender dysphoric patients who see him at least once very three months.

I have been going ot doctors' offices with my son very regularly for many, many years... I am comfortable talking to intersexed and gender dysphoric people in that environment.

To get the groups together, I prepared a simple one-pager on what I had in mind, made a couple hundred copies, and visited the doctors office everyday for two weeks and sat in the waiting room for a couple of hours (there are always at least 5 people in the waiting room). On each occasion, I would start a conversation with one person and the chat usually grew to include three or four people. I discussed what I had in mind and gave each person 5 sheets to share with others they knew (some did, some didn't). I soon had my first 36 people. After that it was not difficult to get the other 50.

I would like to say that I am not surprised by the responses that I am receiving here. Although most of the people in my focus groups liked the approach because it is inclusive (though admittedly imperfect), almost all of them thought it would not be implimentable... primarily because of the amount of resistance I would receive from "the establishment."

Many felt that the only way to get rid of the secrecy that seems to follow the intersexed condition in society is to force everyone to feel that they are being backward if they fail to acknowledge the existence of intersex. Why should a public speech start with "Ladies and Gentlemen"? That is not inclusive enough.

The battles we have won in connection with discrimination so far have been won by making the classifications a reality in everyday life... Not by pretending they don't exist or by hoping for some utopia in which everyone ignores differences (as I have seen some responders advocate in this thread)...

Why is it considered politically incorrect today to use masculinizing job descriptions? That was not achieved by pretending that women don't exist, or by hoping that men would eventually come around to ignoring the differences.

We have to start somewhere... maybe in the little country in the Pacific that is willing to give this a shot. Sure, it's not perfect. Sure, someone will eventually say things like "D4s make the best interior decorators." So what? Today, many people think "men" make better soldiers. We cannot prevent those perceptions.

But, it is much better for you as an intersexed person to have a RIGHT to stake your claim to a position in society as an intersexed person, rather than for you to have to FIGHT for recognition as an intersexed person who "identifes" male or female (I hate that expression).... It's nonsense. "Identify" as who you are or who you feel you are... Pick YOUR place in society, tell the world who you are and demand the resources that are your entitlement. What's the good of having half the population trying to "identify" as members of the other half.

Glen, you asked what kind of resouces need to be channeled to intersexed and gender dysphoric persons. Please forgive me, but I tend to see a very high incidence of medical support required among persons with cerain types of intersex conditions. Who pays? That depends, don't we all know it.

How does a guy named "Harry" explain his hysterectomy on a health insurance claim form, today? It's a nightmare. With my approach, in the Persona section of the form he fills in "B3"... no questions asked... claim paid.

If you do not like a system that is in place, the only way to deal with the problem is to dismantle it; and in social structures, such dismantling only happens by replacement. If you don't want to replace the system that you don't like by putting something else in its place, don't expect it to disappear by itself.

Let me use another example to gain some clarity. I am involved in a program for closing the "digital divide" in developing countries. One of the programs we are using is not perfect. It allows favoritism, nepotism and other forms of unacceptable discrimination in rural online education centers in Africa and South America. We were aware of the flaws when we started the program, but it would have taken potentially 3 more years of development to create a universal program that eleiminated the problems.

Did we wait until we had a perfect program? No. There was nothing there AT ALL. We put the program into effect with it's flaws. Today something is there. It works. It produces thousands of students every month who otherwise would not have had any way of making as great a contribution to their communities. After the program was in place, the unsavory bahavior surfaced, as expected. We found that the problem could be fixed in different places in different ways. We found that we did not need to wait until we had developed the "perfect" universal program. Today the basic program works in 31 countries with local modifications to match the local idiosyncracies... the resources are being channeled where they need to go and people are staking their claim and making their contribution to their communites.

My belief is that moving forward with a slightly improved system is better than sticking to a bad one while we wait for the perfect one to come along.

Dear Sentinel,

I was wondering what your definition of Intersex is?


And under your plan would I be denied my hydrocortisone ? I lack the ability to make cortisol because of CAH and thus without the hydrocortisone, male androgens are produced in excess BUT more important than that is the hydrocortisone helps me fight off physical illness so don't go in an adrenal crisis and die.

SOMEONE LIKE ME CAN'T WAIT until your rule of age 16 to have THEIR hydrocortisone because they would be DEAD !!

I'm glad surgery was available because without it, I wouldn't of been able to menstruate out of what I was born with and I would of died from that.

I am able to have children and my profession is female dominated.

Dear Sunshine,

For me, personally and as an administrator, "intersex" means everyone who feels that the traditional bipolar model (male, female) does not adequately take them into consideration.

I do not need tests to determine whether a person is male or female or masculine or feminine and similarly I do not need tests to determine whether a person is intersexed. I believe that gender indentiy is as much a result of socialization as biology and hence the PERSON must decide where they belong genderwise within the scope of the physiology they have sexually.... and they MUST be fully accepted by the rest of us as belonging exactly there... we ought not to have the option of chosing not to accept the person's position.

Do we doubt a person's nationality when they can show it to us on their passport? Similarly, no one will be allowed to dispute a person's persona when it is plainly stated on their ID... It gives them automatic RIGHTS to what they need.

I believe that there are no absolutes in the matter of persona classification, and that both sex and gender can be expressed in degrees, but I resist any suggestion that sex and gender are the same thing.

Regarding your condition, if I were you, I would probably pick "A1" as my persona center, but you might feel more comfortable with "B2"... It does not really matter, there is no stigma attached. In my world, your classification would ensure that the mix of resources that your situation requires (including your cortisol) are channeled to you. You would automatically be eligable for certain things that most women do not need in today's society are are therefore ususally difficult for persons "identifying as" or "passing as" women to receive.

You would not bump into obstacles like, "But you're a woman, why would you need ...bla...bla...bla..." which many intersexed persons are faced with everyday as we speak.

My system does not prevent necessary medial intervention and/or surgery from being administered to children under age 16. A medical need to save a child's life is what it is. It does not matter if the child is going to grow up to be a man or a woman or intersexed. The doctors do not need to know what is on the child's birth certificate befoe deciding to save its life.

For me, personally and as an administrator, "intersex" means everyone who feels that the traditional bipolar model (male, female) does not adequately take them into consideration.

That's not only wrong (as in unproven to even the slightest extent), it's insulting to intersex people who have survived the shame, secrecy, trauma, and medical abuse of growing up intersexed. Anyone who would claim to be intersex because of gender identity questions has no clue what it is like to grow up IS in our society. If they did, I doubt they would want to claim that label.

While some of the issues we as intersex people have may overlap with the trans community, the struggles are distinctly different. I am not trans and in no way can speak for the issues a trans person experiences. Likewise, I find those who are not IS attempting to speak for me (or define me) to be as hurtful as the medical trauma and abuse I suffered as a child. In that vein, I often look to my trans colleagues to help me explain things:

http://www.amboyz.org/intersection/DangerousIntersections.html

Perhaps Raven's essay will help you understand why you are misappropriating IS people in your flight of fancy designating caste systems for those born with a queer body.

Betsy

If you do not like a system that is in place, the only way to deal with the problem is to dismantle it; and in social structures, such dismantling only happens by replacement. If you don't want to replace the system that you don't like by putting something else in its place, don't expect it to disappear by itself.

Indeed, that is what the intersex movement is doing---changing the protocol by speaking to medical students and hospitals, putting forth a new patient centered protocol that eliminates cosmetic genital surgeries and suggesting peer support and counseling for families and the person with an IS condition in age appropropriate ways, working at making it acceptable to have a queer body, acknowledging that we exist, providing safe spaces, and working at making the rest of the world understand what it means to be born with a queer body. Pretty key to this is driving home the concept (proven by millions of IS people everywhere) that gender and sex is not a function of what our genitals look like or chromosome make-up.

We are not attempting to do that by trying to find more labels and boxes to classify people in---in fact, just the opposite. The key is that we are just like everyone else and would prefer not to be mutilated without our consent. Ending mutilation and gender reinforcement is not saying we need to get rid of the binary. While I agree that the world would probably be better off without a rigid binary system, it's not going to happen.

Gender binaries have been around since the beginning of humanity. There are studies that show (I'll have to look for the citations--or maybe someone else here can find it quickly) that indicates children understand and recognize gender and sex before they even recognize race. That is, a very young child will be able to pick out the girls and boys in a group before they can pick out people of different races.

As far as your bathroom argument (which I do agree with), I would encourage you to find an opportunity to see the video that Dean Spade (the transman whose arrest you cited in the beginning of this thread) called "Toilet Training" It's good stuff and Dean is a wonderful ally to the intersex community without confusing the two issues.

Betsy

Sentinel,

As I've already told you, I will not take part in the discussion of your classification system anymore. But I have a couple of questions about you and your son. To be honest, I question your knowledge about intersex conditions. Your remarks give me the idea that you don’t know the difference between intersex conditions and transsexuality. I even have the idea that you are quite experienced when it comes to trans-issues and that you know about nothing about the issues we have to face.

My son is a patient of one of the most recognized specialists in the field in New York City. This doctor has over 200 intersexed and gender dysphoric patients who see him at least once very three months.

Please tell us more about that specialist. Is he a shrink or an endo? And can you tell us a bit more about the condition of your son? I know it is rather rude to ask this. But in this case I ask you this because you wrote that your new approach is based on the experiences with your son and the observation of the situation of several other intersexed persons. I think it would give us some more insight in why you want to change the system.

I know every ‘most recognized specialist’ for intersex conditions in the world (Assuming that 'most recognized' only applies to the top 100 in this field). Only one of them comes from New York: Heino F. L. Meyer-Bahlburg. And I also know that his group of people with an intersex condition is rather small. This means we now have several possibilities to chose from: 1) Heino is not your doctor and one of the other ‘most recognized specialists’ has moved to New York recently. 2) Your doctor is one of the ‘most recognized specialists for gender identity disorders’ and he also has a couple of patients with an intersex condition. It is not very likely that one of the other specialist I know has moved to New York. Besides, Peggy Cohen-Kettenis, Froukje Slijper, Sten Drop, Herta Richter-Appelt, Clothilde Leriche, Evelyn Loeser, Polly Carmichael, Ken Zucker, Claude Migeon, Olaf Hiort, Ute Thyen, Melissa Hines, Gerard Conway, Sarah Creighton, Lih-Mei Liao, Catherin Minto, and all those other most recognized specialists I forgot to include here: none of them has a group of 100 people with an intersex condition who they see every three months.

Do me a favor and stop putting people with an intersex condition in one basket with people with a gender identity disorder. When you say that his patients see him ‘at least once [e]very three months’ you definitely are not talking about people with an intersex condition.

Today intersex conditions are mainly treated in pediatric hospitals by multidisciplinary teams (pediatric endocrinologist, child psychologist, pediatric surgeon, pediatric urologist and a clinical geneticist). The first months there is a lot of contact between the team and the parents, but after that the pediatric endocrinologist sees the child only once per 12 or 24 months. At time of puberty (or at least when puberty should start) the child psychologist starts to play a more important role. When the child reaches the age of 18 the adolescent is referred to another endocrinologist or to a gynecologist. After that most of us only see a doctor for bloodworks or a bone density test, let say once per two years. At certain times in our life we need the help of a psychologist again, e.g when we realize that our friends and neighbors are pregnant and that we never will become pregnant. But most of the people with an intersex condition don’t need to visit a doctor every three months and even those who need a check up more regularly, can do that with a doctor who isn’t specialized in intersex conditions.

Just like Betsy I would like to know how the ratio transsex/Intersex is in your group. I also wonder in which part of your chart most people in your group would fit.

Sentinel, it’s time to identify yourself! Show us your credentials. Intersex activism is not something you can do by hiding yourself behind a pseudonym.

Groeten, Miriam.

Reading this post is horrifying "For administrative purposes, it is simpler to refer to both anatomically intersexed and gender dysphoric groups as "intersexed"—together numbering up to 40% of the general population in some places.

Intersex and Transsexualism are completely different and should never be in the same classification. This would be extremely retrograde thing to do for both.

I agree with Miriams comments, intersex cannot be transsexual. Intersex is genetic and Transsexualism, GID is not. Research by Gooren et al has shown that it is most likely to be a psychiatric problem with the sexually dimorphic nucleus in the brain.

Intersex people have to deal with problems of shame, secrecy, non-disclosure and damaging genital reconstruction surgery without their informed consent in early infancy. We campaign for removing this and the right for informed consent on genital surgery.

Transsexuals feel they are in the wrong body and often want surgery. They often try associating themselves as intersex to gain more credibility but in the process cause more harm than good to both communities.

We have had a lot of problems in the UK with certain TS groups trying to set up harmful guidelines for intersex treatment to which they know nothing about. The intersex groups do not interfere with TS treatment and we expect them not to interfere with IS treatment. Of course we talk to TS groups but we don't interfere. We cannot be bundled into the same classification it will only make matters worse for everyone.

Having worked with CAH support groups for over 12 years and linking with associated intersex groups like the AISSG in UK we have come a long way in improving UK treatment and support for Intersex conditions.

I am now finally getting the kind of responses I want (and need)... Please keep them coming... I will reply to each of your comments.

So far this thread has had some 600 views, but I have only received replies from eight people... If the number of VIEWPOINTS could get closer to the number of VIEWS, I would really appreciate it...

Thank you all very much for your contributions so far... I am very happy with the progress we are making here...

Hello Sentinel

Here we go again. Little story here. As a child I was lying on the floor and thanks to the damage done by the surgery I was made to endure as a child, my kidneys nearly failed. I was talking about how much physical pain I was in. everyone else was talking about "gender" and "What toys I should play with" in amongst lots of lies about why my bladder was distended, infected and I may end up on a dialysis machine.

Please stop convoluting Intersex conditions with Gender issues.
Intersex people endure medical malpractice, they endure being lied to they are experimented on as kids.

What have toy guns and dolls (Gender issues) got to do with it?

All the best

Sophie.

Intersex is genetic and Transsexualism, GID is not. Research by Gooren et al has shown that it is most likely to be a psychiatric problem with the sexually dimorphic nucleus in the brain.

I think that Transsexualism is more and more being accepted as a biological condition rather than psychological. This is not to say that GID "may" have a number of causes, just as intersexual conditions result from various causes. A common notion now is that a transsexual condition has its seat in the hypothalamus. HOWEVER, if the body matches the gender disposition of the area of the hypothalamus one would not call it a transsexual condition.

I previously tried to define transsexualism as a discrepancy between the gender of rearing (not so-called "biological sex") and brain gender. (This is very awkward to talk about!) It is quite possible for a transexual to be an intersex. I WOULD go so far as to say that quite often transexualism IS an intersex condition. Further, some childhood genital surgery has produced a transexual condition--sometimes in quite rather normal individuals and not just in intersex individuals. Witness Money's John/Joan scenariio.

Keep the psychoanalysts away from me!
We have our own terrors that we have lived through when "they" have tried to make us "normal".

It is ridiculous for one set of individuals with one kind of condition to decide for another how they are to be treated. An AIS individual could not set standards from his/her situation for a CAH or Turner's Syndrome individual. And, neither should IS individuals decide for TS individuals how their situations be handled, as I have heard way too many times on this site.

Just because "some" TS conditions "may" be psychological, does not mean "all" are. Most of us were just born that way. No amount of psychoanalysis going to make it go away if a person is truly TS.

:mad:

So far this thread has had some 600 views, but I have only received replies from eight people... If the number of VIEWPOINTS could get closer to the number of VIEWS, I would really appreciate it...

Never mind the fact that 8+ people (and all 8+ are truly IS according to standard, accepted definitions) are in disagreement with you and you seem to be ignoring that reality. Never mind the fact that the responses have come from a wonderful cross-section of known world-wide leaders within the IS movement working to eliminate the core issues surrounding intersexuality--that is eliminating shame, secrecy, trauma and medical abuse of intersex children without further stigmatizing or marginalizing them. Never mind the fact that you are ignoring the key points that keep getting repeated--the main one being that IS is not primarily an issue of gender.

Sentinel, you might want to start to validating yourself by answering the questions that have been put forth to you.

Betsy

quotes:

We have had a lot of problems in the UK with certain TS groups trying to set up harmful guidelines for intersex treatment to which they know nothing about.

Your remarks give me the idea that you don’t know the difference between intersex conditions and transsexuality. I even have the idea that you are quite experienced when it comes to trans-issues and that you know about nothing about the issues we have to face.


The two excerpts above reflect just what I was thinking about last night. This "system" revolves around gender and persona, which may be fine and dandy for GID (but, even then I have my reservations), but has little value for intersexed people because it does not address what is blatant to us and not clear to non-IS. The shame, guilt, and fear of having a different body and being treated against one's will with surgery and/or hormones. A person may be aware of gender variance in early age, (actually an oxymoron since I believe hereo-sexuality is just another variant in the continuim also) , but CERTAINLY not an IS condition because that is usually kept a secret. What guarantee can be given for an IS person (who may display gender variance in discord with their "assignment") that addresses medical issues when only persona and gender are considered?.....the child doesn't know poop about their medical history for medical conditions/"treatment" rendered is secretive.
And yes, TS and IS are different and administrative, medical, psychological approaches must be different also. I hate being regarded as a "garden-variety" TS ( Iam so sorry for that remark to the trans community, I don't wish to hurt any feelings of some TS here on BLO...but that's the way I feel, dammit!!), the quacks that put that label on me initially disregarded medical conditions that in some IS are manifest: osteoporosis as in my case: I had to bring that matter up before my doctors, they never considered it (even after breaking many bones for merely stumbling/falling forward!!) because , after all, I'm just a transsexual. I had to bring up that I may be "body variant" and prone to certain cancers and (until I FINALLY met a doctor who BELIEVED me and verifed it by actually physically examining me and paying attention to lab results) that issue was poo-pooed away by previous doctors. "You can't be "intersexed" because you are a transsexual". Some politely refused to not see me as a patient because of my "abnormal" sex hormone profile and one just said: "there's nothing wrong here (huh!!??:confused: :rolleyes: ) you''ll have to go see a specialist, though....and this person was an endo!
A "normal" TS would not have had that problem.
Lastly, , as before, I remarked that it is wrong for persons to proclaim their knowledge and solution to something they really have little or no experience in: That is like a doctor prescribing medicine to a patient's condition that he/she has little experience in and/or is confusing that condition with something else. My intrinsic self tells me I would not want to be part of the system you prescribe, it would only be another label that confuses me with something or someone else It does not address the "root problem" of physical and medical aspects of IS which are not administrative:

quote:

gender and sex is not a function of what our genitals look like or chromosome make-up.

Sorry, Sentinel, we IS are the experts and know what's best for us, not you or others, who may mean well and presume to knwo more about us than we...., BUT won't/don't LISTEN to us and BELIEVE us!!

PS: I wish to conclude my say-so in this matter with a feeling of peace and mutual respect not rancor.

Take care.

Ugh, I think it is time to go play with the chicken for awhile http://www.bodieslikeours.org/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=739

Who knew that Burger King could come out with such a wonderful low-fat, low-carb product?

Betsy

quotes:

I am now finally getting the kind of responses I want (and need).

I am very happy with the progress we are making here...
========================
Hey!!!

I hope we here have not become your "research subjects"......as in "lab rats":rolleyes:

Dana:mad:

Do not be anxious, I will provide you with enough information about who I am when it is appropariate. However, I believe that this discussion about intersex and gender dysphoria does not need to be clouded by who I am (or where I got my ideas)... at least, not as yet. Trust me, I will be very open with everyone at the right time.

Dana, thank you for your particular perspective. I consider myself very forunate to have someone in the discussion who has personally experienced over half a century of intersex mis-administration. I certainly do not consider any of you to be "research subjects" or "lab rats"... Neither is my son... I hope you believe that.

Betsy, I know that the responses that I am receiving include viewpoints from some of the most dynamic persons in the area of intersex activism and I respect that highly. I do not consider myself to be an intersex activist (certainly not at the level of you and your fellow members in this online community). It is precisely because of the level of dynamism I have seen on this site, that I approached it for this discussion to take place.

I hope no one is offended by the fact that I would like to see even more comment and criticism of my approach than I have seen so far. I have seen that a topic can run on this site for as long as 8 months in active discussion. While I do not expect this discussion to last that long, I am hoping that in the end I can feel confident that it was widely ventilated.

Hello Sentinel

"I am now finally getting the kind of responses I want (and need)... Please keep them coming... I will reply to each of your comments."

As Dana said, are we lab rats, again?

Am I going to hear "I hear what you are saying" type quotations in your responces? I really wish I could convey to you what it feels like to have been mutilated as a child, what it feels like to then be lied to and how revolting it feels when you discover the mind bogglingly superficial reasons why all that happened.

Excuse me for asking but why do you need to backhandedley define Intersex people as "transgender" or whatever? Why is it so important to frame these conditions into the very framework that had thousands of innocent children surgically butchered in order to fit within said framework? Think about it carefully.

"Gender variant" is a polite way of saying "Sociomedical emergency" I dont want to be hearing it.

I will be honest here, I can speak only from my own experiences as someone who was born with an intersex condition. What bothers me so much is this "gender" stuff. "transgender" and "Gender variant". Do you honestly think that am going to feel comfortable with all the genderbabble and lies I have been hearing all my life being repackaged and used again to redefine me?. You are talking about Transsexualism in this instance, but wether TS ism is Biological or not. There are huge practical differences. between TS and IS, You must be missing the point.

As children Transsexal people were not mutilated, experimented on or lied to. Yes with TS kids as soon as these problems of identity appear then the some social panic seems to start. But for someone like me, I endured this panic from day one, from the, moment I was born! I find convoluting things that are in practice quite different difficult to cope with.

Please understand that talk of "gender issues" and so on are synonymous with words like "Sociomedical emergency".

I was not a sociomedical emergency when I was born I was a child, an innocent child who had no issues other than physical problems with my reproductive tract.

A good friend of mine, Kiira said something I will always remember

"It is not about being a woman [or a man] it is about being a human being"

We are human beings. first and foremost. not research subjects, not "sociomedical emergencies"

And to be truthful with you. if you are saying you are getting the responces you want, when the responces from those intersex people I know of are upset with what you are saying, you are either being provocative insensitive or just indulging some wierd experiment. I am sorry but some of us have had enough.

Just at least try to give some indication of actually aknowlaging what intersex people are saying to you. Saying that you are pleased with the responce worries me as people dissagree with you.

Are you a representative of a UK organisation called GIRES? Are you Bernard Reid? If you are, you have been told before how we feel. Keep out of our affairs.


All the best

Sophie.

Dear Sophie,

Originally posted by Sophie338

Are you a representative of a UK organisation called GIRES? Are you Bernard Reid?

I am certainly not any of the above. You should not be worried by the fact that I am glad to receive criticism, objections and disagreeing viewpoints. I consider this to be the only way forward. In almost three decades of developing administrative systems, I have learned that hacking away at a bad system is not the way to create a new one.

The way to create a new system is to put some radical thought out into the open and hack away at that... eventually, something better emerges. When that happens, you can replace the bad with the better.

The best is never achieved in one step.

GIRES? UK?

A lot of what you are saying does remind me of the Gerbil in the UK. Are you working on that, Sentinel?

Sentinel007,

Please leave and never come back. Your comments are offensive and irrelevant. Your presence here is inappropriate.

Now, if you would like to receive support around issues your child faces, then you are welcome. But your stupid theories and condescending attitudes are inappropriate here.

I'm sick of your refusal to listen to people with intersex conditions (and while they may not be statistically representative of all intersex people, you are talking to some of the most prominent leaders of the intersex movement), and your blatant disregard to the potential detrimental impact your theory/theorizing might have on the lives of intersex people.

You want people's views about your theory, but you don't deserve them. You are only wasting the time of activists who could be educating people who would actually listen and learn, unlike you.

At the very least, go to "Research and Announcements" section of this message board if you want people's opinions about your theories:
http://www.bodieslikeours.org/forums/forumdisplay.php?s=&forumid=26

And don't even bother to respond to me. It's INAPPROPRIATE to continue this discussion here.

###

uriela,

<< I think that Transsexualism is more and more being accepted as a biological condition rather than psychological. >>

Actually, many psychiatric conditions are considered biological, so two categories are not mutually exclusive.

And even if a psychiatric condition (say, schizophrenia) is biologically rooted, we would not consider it a physical disability.

Likewise, even if transsexuality is caused biologically in the brain, we probably would not consider it to be a physical intersexuality.

But there's one condition I might consider transsexuality an intersex condition: That's if and when they start diagnosing GID in infancy and performing brain surgeries to fix it without the child's consent. That's when I feel that the treatment of transsexuality is similar enough to other intersex conditions that it makes sense to join together as a movement.

Sentinel

Well it was a thought out responce, but I really have to agree with Emi on this. You may have believe you some helpful ideas, but what you have said so far is a little offensive. It comes across as patronising. I feel you have no real understaning of what many intersex people have endured, and you are not giving any real indication of listening. You are honestly distressing people.

Emi says

"I'm sick of your refusal to listen to people with intersex conditions (and while they may not be statistically representative of all intersex people, you are talking to some of the most prominent leaders of the intersex movement), and your blatant disregard to the potential detrimental impact your theory/theorizing might have on the lives of intersex people."

I agree I cant put it any better myself. All the best

Sophie.

But there's one condition I might consider transsexuality an intersex condition: That's if and when they start diagnosing GID in infancy and performing brain surgeries to fix it without the child's consent. That's when I feel that the treatment of transsexuality is similar enough to other intersex conditions that it makes sense to join together as a movement.

Emi, that does not sound like a pretty prospect. Whether you or anyone else prefers not to consider TS as an IS condition, I don't consider it to be a "psychological condition", but rather biologically rooted. I've read what you have written about the brain studies and, certainly, all this study of cadavers has not resulted in any "physical proof", on a living breathing human being, such proof requiring brain dissection. Frankly, if they are able to do such a thing by brain scans or whatever, we certainly may end up with that kind of frightful situation, if not by putting us out of "their" misery, so "they" don't have to deal with it.

Nameste'

Uriela

p.s. I don't think this is the place to discuss this, but I felt I had to speak up.

Sentinel,
More than once you threw out an arrogant NYC-centric spin with your justifications:

At the same time, I live in New York,

Needless to say, they were all located in the NY, NJ, CT Tristate Area.

My son is a patient of one of the most recognized specialists in the field in New York City.

Guess what?

I'm pretty involved in the NYC queer community as well. I live outside of the city (1 hour 15 minutes by car). A couple of times a week I work in NYC. I've spoken at The Center about IS issues more than once, and am in conversation with another group that meets there about starting an IS peer support group. I'm speaking at the CUNY Grad Center this week as well as the NJ School of Medicine at Newark (part of Rutgers); the past three years I have been a speaker at UMDNJ for their annual sex week in January. I am also a speaker at the NYC Pride Rally on June 20 this year (the thought of having Kate Clinton introduce me simply tickles me to death) I also freelance at one of the major teevee news networks in the city twice a week. In NJ, we have a planning meeting in May for starting an IS group at the Pride Center in North Brunswick. I am a contributing writer to the NJ Queer magazine of record.

How come all these so-called IS people you claim endorse your caste system aren't involved? Where are they? Who are they? Most IS people say that the most important part of healing is finding others like themselves; Bodies is the only non-condition specific community in the world to the best of my knowledge. Why aren't they here defending you?

Who is the doctor who allowed you to lurk in the waiting room? I have a problem here as I am familiar with the movers and shakers in the realm of intersex treatment in NYC working with IS people and they know who I am. It would be really easy for me to share your theory and find out who you really are (if you are being honest about your methods) and out you for the fraud that you seem to be. A city of several million becomes really small when you know the right people. I hate to pull rank and come across as egotistical, but my NYC reality and your NYC reality isn't really making sense here.

Yes, you have attracted the attention of the leaders of the intersex movement world wide. However, it doesn't mean that your "new system" is worthy of anything. What it does mean is that your ideas are as disdainful of the doctors who think intersex mutilation is an acceptable way to make money.

Betsy

I appreciate the emotional strain that this thread has put on many of you. You speak from the depths of your personal pain and the betrayal that you have felt because of being considered “sociomedical emergencies” or “problem factors” in the lives of your families to the extent that the people whom you trusted most, your parents, did not even have the empathy to tell you who you really were, or what was really your situation at birth… they thought they were being compassionate to “spare” you the horror of knowing who you are… the psychological trauma is unimaginable for someone who has not personally experienced it.

Some of you (and your parents) did not even know there was anything wrong until much later on in life, when you found out in your late 20’s or early 30’s that you had CIAS. You knew all along, growing up that something was wrong (you just did not feel “girly”), even though you looked exactly like a girl and had everything to prove that you were “female”…

I have heard so many of these painful stories and I will be the first to admit that I cannot imagine what such a life is like.

What I DO know is that all administrative change is brought about by the willingness of society to acknowledge that the pain and agony experienced by the group that needs the change is undeserved.

Throughout history, the first step in that acknowledgement process has been “Identification” of the group. Identification, as harsh as it may sound, means nothing else than acknowledging that this group is “also human.” Sure, it was stigmatizing after the abolition of slavery for blacks to be “identified.” But it was the first step, and a very necessary one. From that moment onwards they were “also human,” which was a totally new concept at that time… it took a long time for that to sink in among the general masses. But administrative channels began to emerge, some of which worked in favor or blacks, some against.

When we sought to find a place in society for persons with disabilities, they needed to be “identified” literally for everyone to see them as “also human.” Today, they can demand the resources that they deserve. But “identification” of the group was necessary.

You can dispute the necessity of this step all you want, but you cannot skip to the stage of having the bowl of cream soup, without first going through the melting pot.

When the “civil rights process” (another stupid mislabel) was going on, there were many non-whites in America who disagreed with the step of “identification.” Many said that it’s not about black and white, it’s about being human. Before the classifier for “Race” came off the drivers’ license, it had to get on to it. Getting “Black” on the driver’s license was a victory at the time. Getting it off again was another.

I agree that intersex and gender dysphoria are not the same thing. However, both labels are bad. So are the labels “transsexual” and “transgendered.” But, your wedge must have an edge. The whole world knows that in America there was a period of about 80 years, during which, if you were not “white” your were “black.” There was no “in-between,” there was nothing else.

But, that lead to today’s understanding of a multi-racial society. Today, we have a (still very imperfect) system, which recognizes “minorities.” Resources are now channeled to people because they have needs. Critics object to the fact that “People of Jewish Descent” are officially considered a “minority” in America when it is evident that as a racial subgroup it probably owns a disproportionate amount of the country’s wealth. Such objectors think it is unfair that Jews can take advantage of special resources in the same way as refugees from Burundi. Perhaps it is unfair, but that is a small sacrifice that society makes in order to have a means of channeling appropriate resources to the minority from Burundi AT ALL.

Some of you are objecting to the fact that I said it is easier, from an administrative standpoint, to classify intersexed and gender dysphoric persons as “intersexed.” Look at that statement again. It is the truth. IT IS EASIER! That does not mean it is good, accurate, nice, gratifying or anything else. It is easier. It was also easier to classify all non-whites as “black” at one point. It’s the thin edge of the wedge. If you do not want to be the thin edge of the wedge, someone else will be it.

Maybe there were some blacks who did not like the fact that other races were piggy-backing “their” civil rights movement. Maybe there are some intersexed people who don’t like the fact that transsexuals will be piggy-backing “their” freedom of persona movement. That does not make such “piggy-backing” a bad idea. When society denies gender dysphoric people the right to be human beings, that attitude hurts intersexed people too.

I do not think the terms “gender queer,” “gender variant” and so on are helpful. Some of you have used these terms as an umbrella expression to cover both “intersexed” and “gender dysphoric” conditions. I disagree. Let us use an expression that is accurate as the thin edge of our wedge.

Suppose someone decided to use the expression “color variant” as the thin edge of the civil rights wedge, instead of “black.” Today we would be stuck with a stupid umbrella term, plastered all over the administrative system. Let us start with a correct term as our thin edge. The correct umbrella term will evolve later (if it is ever needed at all). The correct term to be used as the thin edge of this wedge is “Intersex.” Why is it “intersex”? Because your suffering needs to be countenanced by society. Do you want to be considered “gender dysphoric” — a term that can hardly describe what my son has been though, and ignores the pain that most of you feel? Well, whether you like it or not, sooner or later one of these terms will emerge as the thin edge of this wedge, and society will run with it.

For those of you who want to take a look at Betsy’s McDonald’s experience where she answered the question “Boy or Girl?” with the answer “Hermaphrodite,” you will see that someone else got the response “So your child is transgendered.” This is exactly what we need to avoid. When the mother said, “No, intersexed.” The twit behind the counter said, “Like there’s a difference!”

The more a group fights against being used as the thin edge of a social reform wedge, the more likely that group is to be piggy-backed on to another group that serves in the thin-edge role. The intersexed community does not deserve that. Intersex should be the thin edge of this wedge.

Okay! Okay! I hear those voices from some of you saying that it is not good enough to equate the surgical mutilation of an intersexed child to the “trauma” experienced by a gender dysphoric boy whose parents only gave him Barbie dolls to play with. I agree. There is no justification for comparison whatsoever.

There is also no justification for declaring that the pain felt by a mother in Wisconsin, whose son dies in combat in Iraq is equal to the pain felt by a father in Somalia who must watch his children starve. There is no justification for saying that the pain felt by the First Peoples of America when they were torn from their ancestral lands in brutal conflict, is the same as the pain felt by African Slaves and other Indentured Laborers who were forced to work in subjugation at building an infrastructure intended to oppress them even more.

Pain is Pain. It is not comparable across individuals. I cannot really feel your pain, you cannot really feel mine… no matter how hard we both try…. Much less when we are not trying. The broad masses out there have their own daily pains. They are not trying to understand yours. Your pain competes with the pains they feel in their own little worlds and the pains being forced upon them daily by the media and by charities raising money for all sorts of causes. Your pain is being lost in the din.

Let us not loose sight of the goal of getting broad-based recognition for our cause by fragmenting the wedge. The “wheel” of the social reform process has already been invented. Use it! Don’t dissipate your energies by trying to reinvent it.

Believe me, your next step is “identification.” You may not like my way of doing it. That’s Okay. I don’t want you to “like” it. I would prefer if you would tear it to pieces and build one that you like. But, let’s get a system out there that you at least live with. If you think you can’t stand the current bipolar system, trust me, the world out there is full of people who are just waiting to set up another system that you will really hate!

Hello Sentinel

A lot of people on this list feel a lot of pain because people talking about "gender" either mutilated them and or lied to them and or
stigmatised them as children.

I am sorry you cannot talk about "systems" and "policies" without taking the intensly painful experiences of people who endured these horrors into account.

I myself am not out to destroy "gender binaries" or discuss "gender issues" I am someone hoping to God that the suffering as often described in this thread is not exacted on other children with intersex conditions.


If you want to read how nasty it gets read some of the Clinical "management" guidelines for medics
"treating" Children with intersex conditions, some of them are a vivisectionists licence. Read the terminology, check out all that stuff about "gender" and "toy guns and dolls" and "Gender role play" and then look at what they actually do to kids surgically in a large number of cases.

Dont simply try to empathise and then feed us more theory about gender. Get the medical malpractice banned if you really care! These are the issues I am passionate about. I cannot speak for others but I strongly suspect there is a degree of consensus.
Do you not see why this gender talk is so upsetting? I will use this quote again.

"It is not about being a man or a woman it is about being human"

We are not laboratory rats. we are human.

All the best

Sophie.

<< I appreciate the emotional strain that this thread has put on many of you. >>

I don't appreciate your presence on this board at all. What part of THIS IS INAPPROPRIATE don't you understand? As I said, at least take this discussion to the "Research and Announcements" area.

<< You speak from the depths of your personal pain and the betrayal that you have felt because of being considered "sociomedical emergencies" ... >>

No, I'm speaking from the depth of anger and despise directed AT YOU because you are ignorant and unwilling to listen.

Did you seriously think that you are the first person to come up with the bogus theory that you are advocating here? No, it's been brought up over and over by people who know little about intersex, and we are sick of fending it off. The difference, though, is that most people can *listen and learn* when their mistakes are pointed out; you obviously can't.

<< I have heard so many of these painful stories and I will be the first to admit that I cannot imagine what such a life is like. >>

Then shut up. You have done nothing whatsoever but causing pain. NOTHING.

<< Some of you are objecting to the fact that I said it is easier, from an administrative standpoint, to classify intersexed and gender dysphoric persons as "intersexed." Look at that statement again. It is the truth. IT IS EASIER! That does not mean it is good, accurate, nice, gratifying or anything else. It is easier. It was also easier to classify all non-whites as "black" at one point. It's the thin edge of the wedge. If you do not want to be the thin edge of the wedge, someone else will be it. >>

You don't get to decide what strategy intersex movement should take; intersex people do. Your advice has been considered and rejected, thank you very much and now you shut up.

<< Maybe there are some intersexed people who don't like the fact that transsexuals will be piggy-backing "their freedom of persona movement. >>

There is no such thing as intersex "freedom of persona movement." That has nothing to do with intersex movement. What you are suggesting is not even similar to calling all non-white races "black"; it's more akin to calling all non-white races "lesbian."

<< When society denies gender dysphoric people the right to be human beings, that attitude hurts intersexed people too. >>

And when people are discriminated against on the basis of race, that attitude hurts intersex people as a group too; does that mean intersex should be included as "black"?

<< Why is it "intersex? Because your suffering needs to be countenanced by society. >>

Then stop causing the suffering. I'm talking about YOU.

<< Do you want to be considered "gender dysphoric" a term that can hardly describe what my son has been though, and ignores the pain that most of you feel? >>

Nobody, not even the worst of doctors, is arguing that intersex should be considered "gender dysphoric." None whatsoever. Therefore your comment here has NO RELEVANCE whatsoever.

<< Let us not loose sight of the goal of getting broad-based recognition for our cause by fragmenting the wedge. >>

I don't know what cause you are working for, but whatever it is, you are harming the cause of intersex movement.

<< Believe me, your next step is "identification." >>

I don't have any reason to believe you or take your suggestion seriously, considering how little you know--and care, apparently--about intersex. We'll decide what our next step is, and there will be disagreements within our movement over what our priorities should be, but none would be as stupid, ignorant, and irrelevant as your propsal.

<< I would prefer if you would tear it to pieces and build one that you like. >>

Your proposal is irrelevant and is not even worth serious consideration or criticism.

<< If you think you can't stand the current bipolar system, >>

I personally don't particularly like "the current bipolar system," but THAT IS NOT THE POINT when it comes to intersex activism. It's irrelevant. It shows how little you actually know about intersex.

<< the world out there is full of people who are just waiting to set up another system that you will really hate! >>

YOU, for example.

Pardon me, Sentinel, but if you had really read some of the posts in the other forums (rather than prattled on so much) you would see that most intersex people do not suffer from gender dysphoria.

And most people would be better off if they were not meddled with by people who "know better" than anything else.

Browse if you will, but quit telling us how we feel or think.

Dawn

The four steps to achieving the kind of social reform that you need are:

1. Mobilization
2. Identification
3. Empowerment
4. Integration

Please ponder these steps for a while.

You have achieved step one. Your community is mobilized. After decades of suffering you have succeeded in mobilizing your constituents.

Now you need identification. Once you are “identified,” empowerment will begin. Resources will be channeled properly, instead of the ad hoc, inappropriate “solutions” that are forced onto intersexed children every day. Really powerful social resources will be at the disposal of your community (you do not have that as yet… you are all operating on your own personal strengths and resources). It is this wealth of major resources that you will have at your disposal that will give you the tools to achieve the immediate integration and acceptance into society that you want for every newborn intersexed child.

Integration is the success we all want for every section of society. Society is never fully integrated. There is always a group outside of what everyone considers to be the mainstream. Full integration is achieved when people do not remember that something exists.

If you were asked to list the things you do when you get home at night, you probably would not include “turn on the light.” Why? Because the existence of electricity is so well integrated into our lives that we forget to mention it.

In social systems we do not get to that stage of integration without steps 2 and 3.
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