The Third Gender Misconception

[Betsy]

The post from sentinel was a great reminder to finally get the traditional values garbage posted here. Granted it's a bit old already but since no one posted it here, figured I would. I have lots to say about it, but haven't sat down to write anything:

http://www.traditionalvalues.org/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=1502

Betsy

[ptrinkl108]

Hi Betsy,

I took a look at your TVC link, and saw the attack on what they call intersex activism. They believe that intersex activists are promoting a many sex theory. Emi Koyama has a good article on the mistaken assumptions of the TVC at the Intersex Initiative website, www.ipdx.org. The main bright spot is that the TVC article, "Intersex Activists Push Multiple Gender Theory" is rated extremely poor by the site readership. With 14 votes, it is getting only a 1.28 rating on a scale of 1 to 5. It is my hope that many TVC members who read the article, also have read the recent TIME magazine intersex article, which the TVC mentions, and have a more open mind than the leadership of the TVC.

The TVC attack on intersex might open up something of a gender gap in the TVC, with TVC men taking a hard line, and TVC women against attacking intersex on the grounds that they may see it as a "medical" issue. I would be interested in knowing the gender breakdown of the TVC response to the intersex issue.

Peter

[Dana Gold]

I'm curious to know whether the votes are in disfavor with the article presentation and content itself ; or in disfavor of the people (IS) being talked about. Most polls are quite misleading and confusing to me when they ask to rate an article.:confused:
If content and presentation, then I myself would rate it simply: garbage,. It doesn't even rate a 1.:mad:

Dana

[Betsy]

I know Emi has it...they (TVC) posted it a few weeks ago and I kept watching for someone to react (either ISNA since it blasts them) or Emi since she does great writing on it. Finally, I called up David and asked if they were going to react or what and then he sent out an email about it.

I just never got around to it but wanted to put it here so it could be discussed if anyone was interested.

Betsy

[Girlyboy]

Wow. I keep on reading about all the weird people there are in America. What a strange bunch of people. Traditional Values Coalition? Bizzare. I'd rather be born a hermaphrodite than be born narrow minded :)

[Sentinel007]

This is precisely the problem that we are trying to deal with...

Western society, in general, is structured by a very mentally lazy approach to issues, in which people prefer to ignore a matter and pretend it does not exisit -- or act as though it has no right to exist. In order to justify themselves in that, they just mislabel everything and move on... mislabel and move one... mislabel and move on...

What on earth does intersex have to do with values?? (traditional or otherwise)??

It's the same problem all over again:

• Instead of recognizing that gender and sex are two different things, people just lazily use the terms interchangably.

• Instead of accepting that sexuality and reproduction are two different things, they just lazily lump it all together.

• Instead of dealing with the fact that social construct (like marriage and family), parenting, reproduction and sexuality are all completely different things, they just lazily toss it into one package, forcing themselves into a mindset that allows them to lazily attach ridiculous legislation to the package.

I can think of so many examples...

Now we have a bunch of morons mislabeling values as "traditional" as if tradition ever had anything to do with value!!! Then, under the banner of this mislabel they attack things that don't fit into what their concept of what the appropriate expression of the mislabel ought to be!!

Amazing...

Maybe we should come up with our own mislabel: The Tolerant Virtues Council... Ha Ha...

[Glenn]

to add to sentinel's list:

assuming nudity and sexuality are the same thing.

unfortunately, most interpretations of "family" are staggeringly narrow, too.

Glenn

[Meresa]

Right on Glenn.

Nudity does not equal sexuality. Last time I checked, we are still the only species on earth that cover our bodies with some form of clothing (even where it is not necessary for protection from the elements). There is plenty of "artistic" nudity in Mermaid art, too.

And I know of plenty of non-traditional families who are no less healthy and well adjusted than their "traditional" counterparts. I have been invited to be part of several. Actually I am a part of them (only distance seperates).

[RGMCjim]

Right Wing "Christian" Fundamentalism is exploited by an "us vs. them" world view that creates threats and enemies, promises protection and solicits funds to enact those protections. It creates funds in the millions that suport everything to political power to corporate advancement. There are always new enemies so there is always need for more money. Communism was the enemy of choice before it fell. One of the chief new enemies (first defined by Anita Bryant in the 70's in Florida where the resultant anti-gay legislation is still some of the worst in the nation) is GLBT people. Now they have discovered intersex.

They are mobilized to trash the U.S. Constitution to prevent same-sex marriage because they have deified heterosexuality. We are their worst nightmare and they could easily become ours. The exsistance of intersexed people is totally unacceptable to their world view. The whole "third gender" thing we are reading in their preliminary gasps of discovery is not about whether intersexed people have identities as men or women. Their attack is, and will continue to develop into an asault on any Doctor or researcher who asserts that there is such a thing as intersex. You notice that at this point they only think there is one. They are claiming that we have been deluded by renegade medical professionals into thinking we exsist as a people. They are asserting that people with genital anomolies have birth defects that must be corrected, and that those birth defects in no way constitute any actual sex difference. In their world view male or female are two totally and completely seperate entities. They are not interested in what actually is. They won't acknowlege sexual differentiation in the fetus, they know nothing of hermaphrodism in nature. They know nothing about how common intersex is, or what it is and they are not about to find out because it would threaten their religious belief that God made everyone male OR female - AND is not part of their paradigm. They have latched on to the idea that intersex is something made up to try to confound their fantasy that everyone is male/masculine/heterosexual or female/femminine/heterosexual.

Do not underestimate the power of these groups. They are not lunatic fringe and they are unified, monied and powerful. They are only as far away as a click to TNT on cable TV. You already know their names - James Dobson, Pat Robertson, Falwell, Parsley.......Go to soulforce.org to get a better idea of what all this can mean to our future. Go to GLAAD.org, HRC.org, Lamdalegal.org or any of the Gender sites or organizations.

I've been told by lawyers at Empire State Pride Agenda that the current legal and political climate bodes very badly for the intersexed. Want to get married? Want to stay married if you already are? Watch your back if you're GLBT and/or I.

Jim C.

[Dana Gold]

They may not be lunatic fringes, but the beliefs of many of these certainly are:

http://www.tower.org/menagerie/humor/sea_anemone.html

Although this article is inane and sheer idiocy (and does not directly mention intersexed), the assertions made from this person have their base and origin in the same philosophy mentioned by Jim above, which may be directed toward Intersex as an abomination.

Terrible, terrible:(

[Betsy]

Psssstttt....it's satire from the The Onion.

Betsy

[Dana Gold]

So...the article is just BS, then ?

I actually believed it! (didn't see the "humor" part of the URL ):rolleyes:

Oh, well:D:o

[Sophie338]

Hi Dana Hi Betsy :)

I have just read it and it has creased me up. Especially that photo of that guy standing there with his bible looking so serious.

I am still laughing :)

Perhaps it will be the Blue Headed Wrasse next :)


All the best

Sophie.

[Meresa]

Phew!

I wonder what ol' Chester has to say about Mermaids. ;)

Worse yet, my graduate advisor and committee chair has a whole aquarium full of Sword-tail deeemond trans-sex-yew-ull fish! That's right brethren, these heathen fish are all female except for one dominant male. If something happens to him the the biggest female will take over and change sex to become the new male. This is a bomb in a bull, and an affront to traditional fishy values everywhere.

You Devil Fish!! I BIND yew in the name of the Lawerd! You GO!!!

God bless The Onion and Landover Babtist Church!!!

[Dana Gold]

In one of my early on posts, I mentioned that gender (as I relate to the concept) is not really a continuim between the 2 poles of male and female , but rather a circle, with variations all along.....and rather than adhering to bi-genderism and trans-genderism, the word inter-gendered would be more accurate. Anyway, I just (like another post) happened to come across this site:

http://leaves.wineberry.net/dani/sphere/sphere.html

As before; see what you think.:rolleyes:

[RGMCjim]

Ohhhh oh....... I could (I have spent) HOURS on Betty Bowers -Landover Baptist Church site. I laugh until I pass out. The Queen that dreams up that site (this HAS to be the brain child of a gay man - no one else can pump out that much camp) is one twisted sister and has that whole genre down perfectly!! It's a stellar performance and she's been putting that stuff out non stop for years now. (That child needs to get a life.....in the mean time it's great!)

Long live Betty Bowers, that bitch.

Jim Costich

[Betsy]

You Devil Fish!! I BIND yew in the name of the Lawerd! You GO!!!

Shhhhh....we wouldn't them to stop paying homage to the most famous transitional hermaphrodite fish in the world called Nemo :D

Landover---I do believe it's the product of a gay man. I hate an internet thing many years ago with someone (lesbian) who participates in the forums there and she shared that tidbit with me.

Betsy

[Sophie338]

Actually

I have just realised that God has got a problem!

If God made both man and woman in "his" own image, then what does that say about God?

:)

Sophie

[Dana Gold]

I'm glad that website brought some humor to light. A world without laughter is too sad.

Dana

[ptrinkl108]

I think that we should consider putting out mug coasters. The other day, when I printed out the sex/gender "persona" chart to use as a coaster, I found that the color separation on the ink jet printer that I was using was poor. Then I noticed the "WWBD" (What Would Betty Do?) coasters at the Betty Bowers - Landover Baptist Church website. Beautiful. Her coasters are made of tile. I think that she is on to something, and that "Bodies" should consider putting out our own tile coasters. I would be interested in hearing of any design ideas.

Peter

[Emi]

Coming to theatre near you:

Finding Nemo 2: Nemo Finds Herself

a sequal from Disney/Pixar

[RGMCjim]

Sophie,

This is my FAVORITE anti-Bibliolotry stun-gun for those who are so desperate to cling to their fantasy about sex & gender being an absolute binary that they try to blame their fear/sexism on God:

I have read 8 different translations of the Bible and consulted a Rabbi, RC Priest, Episcopal Priest, Presbyterian and American Baptist theologians with Phd.s in theology. All agree that the Bible says, "God created them man AND woman." It does not say, "God created them man OR woman." So when a Biblical literalist who worships what the Bible says, (instead of God) starts in on me I remind them that I am male AND female, but they are male OR female so that book is meant for me. Not them. End of discussion - it's not their God, not their religion, none of their business.

I do this with my best "Legally Blonde" wide eyed, sweetness& light tone.

It's more damned fun than the roller coasters at 6 Flags.

Jim C. - Devout Christian, worship leader, choir member, bell choir director and partner of a professional church organist.

[Sophie338]

Hi Jim C


Thats Cool :-)

From what I can understand the Bible is not actually full of strict binary dictats in any case. I know some Christians such as yourself who realise this and are not all hung up.

They just dont have the prejudices. My Personal anti Bibliolatry (I like that word) method of attack is basically all the stuff about self righteousness in Matthew 7. You see for every four remarks in the bible that go on about the strict binary there are something like 40 about pejudice, piety and bigotry.

I think the juciest quote to throw at people like the TVC is

Matt 7:21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter into the kingdom of heaven—only the one who does the will of my Father in heaven.

7:22 On that day, many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, didn’t we prophesy in your name, and in your name cast out demons and do many powerful deeds?’

7:23 Then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you. Go away from me, you lawbreakers!’

I can just picture these head wobbling, oh so righteous, TVC lot in front of Big G saying "Oh didt we do so well are we not wonderfull! we had our Family Values etc etc"

To which the repsonce is "No Go Away!"

I can concurr with what you say about the man and woman thing. Someone called Rabbi Sachs (The UKs cheif Rabbi) made a quote in some religious talk show over here.

"Well God made all of humanity in thier own image, God is both Mother and Father if you like. In God there is no distinction Just the person"

Lets face it in nature there is a huge amount of variation from what the TVC would define as "The norm". You get the feeling that they are telling God that God had better create things properly or else.

They worship the bible but they dont even read it.

All the best

Sophie :)

[RGMCjim]

Sophie,

Most Christians are unaware that in Jewish writings of the creation myth there exsisted a human created BEFORE Adam and Eve named Lilith. Lilith was a hermaphrodite. Creation myths actually address the SPIRITUAL awakening of humanity, but if we imagine them to describe the development of species as well then creation explains itself. Asexual reproduction precedes sexual reproduction in development of life on our planet. Then comes hermaphrodism, eventually seperate sex idividuals. Male OR Female is NOT the prototype of sex. The ancients knew this.

Here's another great one: St. Paul said that to be "in Christ" meant to be so centered on Christ as to embody Christ. He went on to say that to be "in Christ" meant that there was no longer any male or female. Ask them to reconcile that with their claim that he condemns homosexuality.

It's a hoot.

Jim C.

[Andi]

Well, ask any Christian and they will most likely tell you that God is perfect. In my dictionary they have (in the back) a listing of various symbols, including the male & female symbols. Right beneath the male & female symbols is the one for Hermaphrodite (OK, the term may be outdated by the standards of now, but my dictionary is a few years old).
For these gender symbols they also made mentions of the plant kingdom, equating male with the stamen, and female with the pistil. For the Hermaphrodite symbol, they have "perfect, or hermaphroditic, plant or flower".
So, if a plant must have both male and female genders to be perfect, and God is perfect, I think the answer is obvious. (I think just about anyone would place God higher on the evolutionary scale than a plant)

HA! Who's flawed now? >:)

Andi


Originally posted by Sophie338
Actually

I have just realised that God has got a problem!

If God made both man and woman in "his" own image, then what does that say about God?

:)

Sophie

[Jules]

Lets not forget that the drafts for the bible have been found some time ago. Even the bible was cut and edited from its original state. The bible we read today has been westernized and yes, many people follow the bible without ever reading it or understanding that the meanings can be taken many ways.

[Sophie338]

Hi Jim C :)

"Asexual reproduction precedes sexual reproduction in development of life on our planet. Then comes hermaphrodism, eventually seperate sex idividuals. Male OR Female is NOT the prototype of sex. The ancients knew this."

Very true. If you looked at genetics and the history of that study, you would actually find a fascinating tale of intrigue as to how the two sexes as currentley defined came about. If anything the two sexes or rather some forms of sexual reproduction are just one means of bringing about genetic diversity. In humans there are many genes in the autosomes that are involved in sexual dimorphism. SRY on the Y chromosome does not have the last word. In fact the XX = girl XY = boy thing is painfully simplistic.

I dont know how your faith rests with evolution. Mine sort of sees evolution as part of the picture. But I can certainly concurr with you about the fact that sexual dimorphism is by no means the absolute, rather this is the odd one out from a purely genetic standpoint. It is a bit like a Microsoft Operating system, all patches and rewrites. If you look at it one way, from both a bio-historical context and from a theological context, you could argue that original sin was the appearence of sexual dimorphism ;)

And that the serpent in the book of genesis was the sinful Mitochondrion (The Cells Battery that was in the distant past a separate organism, that indulged in an extreme from of symbiosis).

Personally I see sexual dimorphism as a passing phase in the grand scheme of things, rather than sin, and the Bible does seem to confirm this in a number of quotations. Though as Jules says what we read today is heavily westernised. the most interesting (Albeit apocryphal) is the description of Wisdom (As in the book of Proverbs) as a character, who was initially hermaphrodite or asexual. Gnosticism took that up quite heavily.

I dont profess to be an expert of faith or spirituality, I am basically a biologist with more questions than answers. But sometimes looking into older religious texts does seem to paint a fascinating picture. One I would consider perilous to dismiss. I do think that organisations like the TVC have not only ignored those parts of the Bible that dont suit thier strange Stepford wives dimorphic obsession. They are ignoring some very profound insights into what the Bible describes.

I know for many it is difficult to reconcile Biology (Specifically Evolution) with Faith. But for me the whole problem lies with an argument between Darwin and the Church (Or Specifically Darwin and Samuel Wilberforce (Then Bishop of Oxford) it is telling

Wilberforce was basically making an idiot of himself by adopting a Biblio-dolatarous (I love that term) position by maintaining an ultra literalist standpoint.

My Favourite quote from that debate must be that of Huxley confronting the Bishop. Who when the bishop asked about being decended from apes reacted by muttering "The lord has delivered him into my hands", and then replied "he would rather be descended from an ape than from a cultivated man who used his gifts of culture and eloquence in the service of prejudice and falsehood".

I think that sums it all up for me, The TVC are like the Good Bishop used to be, making foolish judgments about a God they do not really know.

Hence the quote in Matthew 7 being really interesting

All the best

Big Hug :)

Sophie.