It just dawned on me---I am not quite right [Archive] - Intersex Community Forums

maxkwak

08-03-04, 10:51 PM

I work in the dental industry where dentists (Oral and Maxillofacial Surgeons, Periodontists) routinely use bone particles or bone chunks from donors to grow new bone. These products are harvested (that's the industry term) from cadavers, processed for biological safety, and made available to dentists for grafing purposes. Bone particles are put into bone defects and act like fertilizer to stimulate the surrounding host bone to regenerate and fill in the defect. As the new bone grows, the grafted bone particles dissolve.

Bone chunks are attached to the host bone with screws until they heal, then the screws are removed and the gaft functions like a splint to strengthen the host bone and increase its volume. Eventually the grafted bone chunk merges with the host bone and becomes one with it ... like a grafted trunk on a rose bush or fruit tree.

Sometimes cow bone is also used, but it doesn't work as well as transplanted donor bone from humans, and those who receive it develop an overwhelming desire to chew their cud (I just made up the last part!). The best bone for grafting, however, is bone transplanted from one location to another within one's own body, because, unlike donor bone, it contains all of the genetic materials that stimulate bone growth and there is no risk of disease tranmission.

Obtaining, processing and selling donor bone is a HUGE international business! The company where I work obtains donor bone from Germany, which was placed in my jaw during dental surgery. I works amazingly well, although I still can't speak a word of German...

Betsy

08-04-04, 07:07 AM

I finished the book (not long after the original posts in fact) and decided I would be donating my body to science. I've sent off for the paperwork already. One of my issues however is I do NOT want to end up in anyones mouth (or elsewhere--they use body parts for some really weird things, don't ask). If I do end up in someone's mouth, we both need to be alive and she needs to be cute. hehehe

Betsy

Peter

08-04-04, 11:15 AM

Hey Betsy,

It just dawned on me..... HAPPY BIRTHDAY!

Peter

Dana Gold

08-04-04, 11:18 AM

quote: "I would be donating my body to science"

Great Caesar's Ghost!, Betsy! :confused6 Whatever was in that book ( or your system? ) that prompted you to consider being a possible cadaver in some university medical school lab? :confused3

Personally, I wouldn't want anybody, including nature's elements "screwing around" with or "decomposing" my body....incinerate me and toss my ashes to the wind and sea.

Anyway, hope you choose the right field of science that will treat your body with dignity........and Happy Birthday, (again)... :present:

Dana :thinking:

Betsy

08-04-04, 12:57 PM

you know what it was? Reading about what happens to your body during cremation, and the morturary process. Neither sounded particularly worthy of me.

Betsy

PS...thanks Peter and Dana for the B-day wishes.

Betsy

08-04-04, 02:56 PM

The other thing with whatever your choice is, you're dead. LOL...maybe I could start optioning parts now.

Dear Dr. Jerk-off,

Since you felt it okay to cut my clit off me, you are now bestowed with my anus.

A couple of years ago when presenting at a medical school, the workshop was held in the "brain lab" and there was a cabinet labelled "brains---please keep the lid on" I opened the cabinet and sure enough, there was a plastic bucket of brains. At the time, I could only think about how they were packaged like a bucket of pickles.

All in all, I'd much rather see if I can be plastinated and live out eternity in a museum.

betsy

Dana Gold

08-04-04, 04:00 PM

After the "spirit", (soul, life force, whatever) departs, the rest is "dead meat"....which can still be labeled. Once the ashes are in the sea, noone can label me anymore, especially with: he, sir, Mr and any other (sexual) designation or demeaning terminology. I wish no artifact (grave, urn etc.) either, for that can be labeled also. I know what happens to the body in both cremation and "preservation", as well as "in the coffin"...I find the "rot" repugnant and the preservation a "display" for others' sake...for those that loved me, let memory serve as a better "avenue" than a corpse....and for those that hate or feel averse to my reality: there will be no "artifact" for them to curse and/or stare at......my spirit can easily disregard/deflect their rancor and ill (or incorrect) feelings and words... for they will no longer have a solid entity to direct their primitivite ignorance toward and their 'words' can truly no longer harm me. Let the fire cleanse me and reduce the "meat" to the Elemental from whence I came; and to the sea where noone can defile my ashes.

Dana

Wyn

08-05-04, 09:52 PM

Dana - I can relate to your aversion - the more I think about it, at this point I'd much rather be cremated or thown into the sea (perhaps I'll just disappear while sailing). What really creeps me out is the thought of some corronor(sp) cutting me open and checking things out. Yeah, I know that if I look back, all I'll see is a dead body that was once 'mine', and I will be at peace with that, but here in the physical world, my emotional being gets very irritated with this probability. Perhaps I shouldn't worry, but we are all thinking, emotional creatures while we inhabit our bodies (like ours), and the only way we can relate to this world is through it's actions and reaction - it can be hard to separate our spirit from the physical while we inhabit this medium.

I don't have any 'replacement parts' just yet, except possibly the fillings in my teeth, but I'm sure this will change at some point, hopefully later rather than sooner.

Dana Gold

08-06-04, 10:54 AM

Hiii Wyn!

I really don't like to (presently) liken my life's struggles with my body and mind to a war. But, the analogy is somewhat true in that our bodies to us are like a nation (or individual property) is to it's citizens. And in the event that the nation/property (our bodies) is attacked or under threat, we naturally wish to protect it at all costs and to reclaim it if the "intruder" has wrested it from us. As in wartime, people have destroyed their own properties and edifices to preclude the enemy taking possession of it and eventually destroying or altering these. Ideally, when I pass away, I don't want either Humankind nor Nature's "decomposing" creatures (worms, bacteria etc) to "take possession" of my physical self. I fought too hard to reclaim, nurture, and retain my body (and my co-existing neuronally-based mind) to have it be "transferred" to another and further physically altered. Examples: morticians' "handiworks", the slow "rot" :sick: in a dank coffin, or whosoever takes claim of my corpse to have it "processed" according to city or state law. I.E.; to be splayed apart by the coroner (more surgery?) like a frog on the dissecting tray. " Hey guys!!, come here and TAKE A LOOK at this freak" :umno:
I would like it to be MY decision what happens to my physical self and cremation/back to the sea will significantly lessen the possibility of any further "incursions" by nature, beast, or Human.
In my mind I don't particularly like the thought of the "processes" that take place in the crematorium, but I regard it as much better (and quicker ) than the alternatives. The ideal ( but only fantasy) would be to undergo complete vaporization by an atomic fission or fusion "blast". :outtahere

But then again, who can tell the eventuality of our future, we can only hope for the best outcome and do what we can to make it so.

Anyway, take care.

Dana

Betsy

08-06-04, 12:43 PM

Composting...makes good potting soil:

http://bric.postech.ac.kr/science/97now/01_6now/010613c.html

:bis:

Betsy

Dana Gold

08-06-04, 02:07 PM

"cremation emits toxic gasses"

Well......I'm into environmental health and safety, so I'll have to rethink the above......AND compost "dust" from flash-freezing sounds a helluva lot better than "blistering" super-heat..AND it's not only environmentally friendly but actually contributes back to Mother Earth. WOW! Thank you, Betsy!!
Now, if that will "catch on" here in the US and end up not being too expensive.

Just think when someone ( for example a "standard man")would be surprised how (and from who :omg_smile )their veggies got there.... :dinner_pl ....." what!?, these tomatoes were organically grown from who/what!?? :sick: Am I gonna end up with boobs!? :whatchuta

Hahahahaha!! That's what call getting the "last laugh" :tounge_sm

maxkwak

08-06-04, 09:25 PM

Do dead composers decompose? I'm not worried about dark coffins or hungry ants after I die, because I'll be dead. Instead, I want to be cremated and thrown into the ocean so that nobody will contribute a dime on my behalf to the funeral industry. What a racket that is!

I took family leave (thank you, Pres. Clinton!) to take care of my mother so that she could die at home. That was the very worst and the very best experience of my life. My mother took a long time to die (7 months), but that gave me an opportunity to learn about the dying process, and she showed me there is nothing left after the person is gone.

Everyday for the seven months, my mother saw her dead relatives. It was as natural to her as seeing another person enter the room. In fact, one morning she told me about a lovely visit she had with my cousin, who was her age, and her huband. She wondered when they would be coming back to visit her, and I told her that it would be very soon. What I didn't tell her was that my cousin had died a week earlier, or remind her that my cousin's husband had been dead for 20 years. She saw her own deceased mother everyday, and was greatly comforted by that.

My mother slipped into a coma about 24 hours before she died, which was a blessing because it ended her suffering. Moments before she died, she sat straight up in bed, still in a full coma, and looked at me with opaque eyes, as if to say good-bye. She then laid back down. I sat next to her, placed my hand on her chest, and felt her last breath and the last tick of her heart. That was it. Her spirit was gone and all that was left was a shell of who she was. I knew, from her own experiences, that she was with those loved ones that she saw.

I don't care about my shell when I die, but I do not want it to profit anyone's commercial business. Rather than spending a ridiculous sum to spend eternity in the Heavenly Rest sector of the local cemetary, I'd rather kiss the high tide and feed the fishes.

So, how do I turn this morbid discussion back to an intersex issue? I spent most of my life hiding my intersexuality from the world, and that left me a bit dead inside. Not because I have a desire to wear my medical history on my sleeve, but rather because I didn't accept myself. My friends didn't know, most of my family didn't know and least of all, I never told my doctors about my history or why'll I'm so scarred. There was no genetic testing when I was born, and I always considered myself a freak.

BLO has given me a resurrected spirit in many ways. I've learned more about myself in the last few weeks in some respects than I have in my more than half-century of life. Just learning the word "intersex" has opened my world, believe it or not! Reading the postings of others is helping to erase my sense of embarrassment and shame in favor of a sense of dignity and self-worth that was missing in my life. What amazing and beautiful souls come to this site! It's also given me the courage get more information about my condition, whatever that is. I saw an internist at a local university hospital, and he is conducting chromosome and hormone tests, in part to determine what I am! That's quite an adventure at 53! I'll have the test results next Monday, and I am really anxious to finally have some anwers. He's also referred me to an endocrinologist, who I'll see in October.

Now I have a roundabout question on intersexauls and gender identity. I assume that most intersexuals accept the gender identity that they predominantly resemble and which was assigned to them at birth (or shortly thereafter if surgically reassigned to the opposite gender), while a smaller minority do not, just as people do in general society. Is that correct? While I feel predominantly male, I don't feel fully male, due to my physiological status, and actually feel androgenous in many respects. I'm curious if that is a common feeling or unique to me.

Jules

08-07-04, 09:23 PM

Hello Maxkwak, WELCOME!

Let me ask you this, What does it feel like to be male? Are they soft or

hard? Do you put your hands on your stomach and say" Oh yea!! That's

male!" Do I know what it feels like to be female because I have breasts and a

pretty face OR do I know what it feels like to be male because I never had a

period and I like sex with woman. Can I feel male at 500am before my shower

but feel female after 1100am tea? Here it what I think. I can feel male or

female, but somedays I can feel like a dog. Other days I feel like a work

horse. Sometimes I feel like a sex pervert. What is it about our feelings?

Are we realy defined only by how we feel at one time or another.

What I'm aware of is that people bring out feelings in me. If I'm hanging out

with the guys, then I'm one of the guys. If I'm hanging out with the girls then

I act like the girls. Put me in a room with a hundred people and I will find the

smartest person in that room and act like them. If they pick up on my

energy, male or female, I give that energy right back. I have my own set of

feelings about myself when I'm alone, I feel like Julanne.

When people change gender I understand it as A type of rebelling against

general society.

When people get boxed in by people who try and invoke types of feelings in

someone else that don't belong, transgendering is a way of breaking out of

that box. I don't see intersex and trasgendering as the same issue. People

who are intersexed may get boxed in by people who want them to be

something that they are not and end up trasgendering, but it is the social

construst of gender and how other people want them to be that brings that

out, not the intersexed condition itself that invokes those feelings. You can

be intersexed and just not care if your male or female, or if you had

operations to make you look like one or the other. :cartman:

Oh yea, to touch on the topic, I don't care what happends to me when I'm

dead as long as I have made a good name for myself that people will

remember for many years long after I'm gone.

Peter

08-07-04, 11:11 PM

Hi Maxkwak,

It's good to read your posts. I find them thought provoking. I think that issues of gender identity are fairly common for intersex people. I have read somewhere that 8 percent of intersex people who were assigned a sex at birth come to feel that they were assigned the wrong sex later in life. This might not seem like a big number, roughly 1 in 10, but considering that trans* people are about 1 in 1000 for the general population according to Dr. Joan Roughgarden, then an intersex person is about 100 times more likely than a person in the general population to have gender issues involving trans* issues. And those who do not have surgery frequently have their own gender issues and do not identity exclusively as male or female, and may also be trans*. It's not a scientific sample, but I think that I can accurately say that every intersex person who I have met through working with the San Francisco Human Rights Commission intersex task force feels that they have gender issues not addressed by the ideology of traditional gender conformity.

There is the whole question of what are gender issues. As men still do not give birth, there are some things that are not that ambiguous. But if you are like me, there are many grey areas of gender identity. For instance, for many years, several times a month, I would hear insults like "queer", "faggot" and the like simply because I did not fit someone's image of what a man should look like in public.
I think that all my adult life, I have borrowed some signals from gay culture to signal my displeasure with the repression of my being intersexed. I would often do things like comb my hair straight back in a male bi-sexual style, or wear purple shirts and the like. It's not that I was at home in gay culture, but I really hated straight culture.
Anyway, those are some of my thoughts, and for each questioning person the story of their ambiguity is different. Although I admire Jules' fluidity of personality, I myself have always been somewhat ridgid, much to my own detriment. I would like to hear more about how these gender issues play out for you.

Peter

maxkwak

08-07-04, 11:18 PM

[I have my own set of feelings about myself when I'm alone, I feel like Julanne.]

Hi, Jules!

I think your quote above says it best. We all feel differently at different times and in different situations. Maybe at my age I'm a victim of our own culture that likes to put people into boxes with labels. It's that kind of thinking that must motivate physicians to "fix" intersex children at birth. I still have a lot to learn! Thank you for sharing your thoughts with me.

I saw a new doctor a couple of weeks ago, who is running some genetic and hormone tests, and he kept asking whether I felt male or female. That's what prompted my questions. I think the doctor was really asking what I perceived my sex to be compared to what my physical condition showed. He also asked specifically about my sexual orientation, which is an altogether different topic.

I am an intersexual who has a body that is mixed sex. That is a physical sex trait. My mental perception of my physical sex is that I am primarly male, because that's what I most closely resemble, but also that I am not the same as other males, because my body is also female. I have a lot of women friends, and feel very much at home in their company. I also have a lot of gay friends, male and female, including an elderly gay man who lives with me because he couldn't afford to live alone in retirement. As for my sexual orientation, I experimented with both sexes when I was youger, but didn't really feel physically comfortable with either. Straight people think I'm gay and gay people think I'm weird, because I don't sleep with anyone. I just think I'm me, too.

maxkwak

08-08-04, 12:04 AM

Hi, Peter

It seems that there are some striking parallels between us. The world is full of criticisms. I've always been too much of this or not enough of that for various people in my life, because my responses and perceptions tend to be rather different from what some people think or how they generally respond.

There are also some differences between us. Since I live in San Diego rather than in San Francisco, I've always tried to blend into the landscape as much as possible as a matter of survival, although I've certainly had my share of catcalls, too. I don't have any disdain for the heterosexual community, but it definitely remains only tangential to my realm of existance.

I can see that gender issues must about in the intersex community, and for good reason. In reading about Kleinfelter's Syndrome (so-called XXY males), I came across a piece that said there is a high liklihood that XXY males will be homosexual. I was struck by the assumption (gender bias?) that XXY people are males with an extra female (X) chromosome. Perhaps some XXY people are actually females (XX) with an extra male (Y) chromosome, which would not make them homosexal if they were attracted to men, despite the similarity in their genitals.

If an intersexual is truly a person who is between sexes --- or in my estimation a person who is a combination of both sexes --- how can s/he be considered homosexual, heterosexual or trans* based on whom s/he is attracted to? I think our society tends to classify intersexuals as whatever gender they most closely resemble, and in some cases that really has very little to do with who and what we are, since we are both.

Gender is a social construct, whereas physical sex is a biologic category based on physical and genetic traits. Like any classification system, however, the gender and biologic sex classification systems break down when intersex people arrive on the scene. I've read that there are some fertile females who have male sex chromosomes (XY) and some fertile males who have female sex chromosome (XX). So, there is a lot science doesn't know about sex, gender and the human brain. No wonder some people are confused.

Sunshine1

08-08-04, 12:57 PM

I go to many different places for my job and it always cracks me up how much others need to use gender to conduct themselves.

One of these days I'm going to count how many times I'm addressed as lady, girl, miss, ma'am, or woman. It seems such a necessary need for them on the surface but I don't understand why and I've come to the realization that I'm not supposed to understand. Once I was wearing my short hair under a man's baseball cap with a man's shirt covered in dirt and grease, with jeans that also had axel grease all over them and I had on combat boots. When I gave the shipment order to the good looking guy behind the counter he kept smiling at me. I left but came back inside to get something to drink. The guy quietly told me that I was cute which made me laugh because all these women were standing around in their swimsuits. I told him thanks dude and I left.

I have a ball in the female gender but actually I pick whatever I need from the male and female gender then take it from there. I've found that when I tried to act just female that many times "normal" people would ask me if I was a man or a woman and that I sounded scripted. It's like they can sense that you are hiding something but when I'm myself with a balance of both genders people always seem more comfortable with me or maybe it's just that I'm more comfortable. Most people seem more comfortable and some you have to kinda clarify it to. One man actually said to me," I am a man, you are a woman! Let me help you! All I could think about was that there is a little more to it, buddy. Every person (excluding the medical community )that I've ever told about how I was born never had a problem with it. I makes me wonder why medicine was so insistent on changing me. I forgave the surgeon but it's scary to read that he still thinks that changing the external genitals no matter how well it is done is necessary so that person will fit in socially and that is what my parents were told even though they were comfortable with how I was and so was I according to the psych dept. at the hospital but the doctors &%&^& Bull Shit ME INTO THEIR gender constrictions. I wasn't wired like that and I'm not a bad person either but I spent to much of my life trying to be good and fit into their gender construction and my health is in danger because of it.

I was looking at a site about freaks back in the 1930's and those people were pulling in $1,000 a week and my gosh it makes me wonder what the equivalent to that now would be.

Jules

08-08-04, 01:52 PM

Hi Maxkwak,

I think that issues of gender identity are fairly common for intersex people. I have read somewhere that 8 percent of intersex people who were assigned a sex at birth come to feel that they were assigned the wrong sex later in life.
Peter

WARNING SOME SEXUAL CONTENT

Hello Peter!! Here is some thought provoking thought!

How can you be assigned the wrong sex? Is it ever wrong to be a

male? Or, is it ever wrong to be a female? We claim that what is between our

legs does not define us, so how can any sex, male or female be wrong?

When we are in the womb at seven weeks our sex is assigned to us. Is our

genetics ever wrong? What is the difference? We don’t get to pick sex if DNA

chooses for us, why should intersex children be treated so differently? Do we

want to be that different? My understanding is, it is not wrong not to assign

sex to someone with a herm condition, like child abuse is wrong. What is

wrong is condemning gender behavior, like saying that a girl who has boyish

behavior is wrong because she is a girl. People will behave as they do. That

behavior has nothing to do with what sex they were assigned. What that

child needs is not a new sex assignment but a new parent

assignment.

Any shame that we feel is past down from our parents disapproving of our

actions, and not giving us self-esteem. The in-box understanding of male and

female has been around for thousands of years, for good reason, it has

worked for thousands of years.

Trasgendering or transvestitism if it is not forced, by trying to

push feelings into someone that are not there, is often a sexual exspression,

not a rebel against gender.

Take the case of Abbe’ de Choisy.(1644-1724)

Choisy’s mother a rich aristocrat already had three sons and longed for

a daughter, so when her fourth child was a son, she decided to bring him up

as a girl anyway. Little Choisy was dressed in girl’s clothes, made to put on

make up, and had pierced ears like a girl. Guess what? Choisy identified as a

female! Tell that one to anyone who thinks we are born with our gender. :umno:

The king of France, Louis XIII’s brother the Duc D’ Orleans,was a flaming

homosexual who dressed as a woman. He was a frequent visitor of Choisy.

Choisy as an adult wrote descriptions of D’ Orleans which became the poster

boy of all transvestites (they were not using the term TG back them) for

over two hundred years.

Shame on you, if your transgendered and don’t know the history of these

men! :teach:

Choisy wrote “Those Men, once they think they are beautiful, are far more

besotted with their appearance then women are”. Tell that one to Money!

Young Choisy found many people who excepted him as female and rejected

anyone who dared called him a male. Although he was condemned by some of

the public, and a disgrace to his family, (His mother loved him) he inherited

the family fortune after his brothers died and moved out of Paris. He

successful deceived all the local gentry into believing that he was Madame la

Somtesse of the town, thwarting all their advances. The mothers in the city

were all too eager to send their young daughters to visit him (Madame al

Comesse) where they might learn the lastest Parisian fashion. Despite his

upbringing, Choisy was a lustful, sex-crazed, heterosexual or lesbian as he

called himself. Once he had girls under his roof, he was able to seduce them

very easily. Occasionally his ardent nature betrayed him.

Once he wrote, that, he was entertaining female guests while he was still in

bed. (A common practice of aristocrats at the time) he was making love to a

girl hidden under the sheets in his half bed (a bed made just for discreet

hidden sex) While he chatted with his guests the girl moaned during her

orgasm at an inappropriate moment in conversation,” OHHHH! THATS

WONDERFULL!!!” :happy45: Woops. :embaresse

It could have happen to anybody(smirk)

Dana Gold

08-09-04, 02:47 PM

made a mistake, sorry!!

Peter

08-12-04, 03:08 PM

Hi Jules,

I read your "thought provoking" comments and decided that it would probably be best if I let the issues rest for a few days. I am not quite sure what to make of your comment that it is not possible for a person to be assigned the "wrong" sex through infant surgical assignment. I guess that you were responding to my comments that I had read that 8% of children surgically assigned a sex eventually came to feel that they had been assigned the wrong sex. Now, I am not an expert on sex and gender, and I often confuse the two things, but it seems to me that it is entirely possible to be surgically assigned one sex\gender and then grow up something different. Beyond that, I believe that you feel that it is ok to surgically modify a child's genitals so that they look more like other boys and girls. I resent that I underwent surgery to make me look more like other kids. I feel that such surgery should only be done with the consent of the child at an appropriate age. I don't want to go into all of the downside aspects of infant genital surgery, but there are significant potential problems with infant genital surgery. Now, in the largest sense of the term, I agree that no sex is "wrong" but that is not how I meant my comments. I was reporting on the experiences of a number of intersex people who had been surveyed on the issue.

I agree with you that often children need a new "parent assignment". When I first came to Bodies, one of the funniest comments that I read when reviewing old posts was your comment saying forget about the maturity of the child - what about the maturity of the parents? But beyond being funny, I believe that you have a position that ultimately it is only the doctors who can make the decisions about the treatment of intersex children. I find that position troubling, and I sometimes wonder why you have such a high regard for doctors. After all, I believe that it was doctors who came up with the idea that it was best to perform infant genital surgery at an early age, and then shroud the issue in deliberate shame and secrecy. It's not only the parents who are demanding denial and evasion.

Thanks for your historical remarks. I found the history interesting.

Peter

Jules

08-12-04, 05:06 PM

We claim that what is between our

legs does not define us, so how can any sex, male or female be wrong?

There always is seven major questions if we are to talk about a problem.
Who?
What?
When?
Where?
How?
why?
who cares, or so what?

Who decides what a person sex is?

Do we look at Our Genitals?

Well I claim that what is in between your legs doesn't matter.

Our parents? Well, taking Little Choisy story as a example it is very

suggestive that gender is a social contruct.

Our brains? Well we have our sex drive, that is in our brains, and types of

behavior, like male-like or female-like comes from our brain, but does that

really pin point why we idenify as one sex or another? Because a girl is gay,

who acts like a boy, talks like a boy, it doesn't mean she sees will see her

gender as male? No.

What is the diffrence between male or female?

If it is not, what is between our legs, or on our breasts, or in our hormones in

our blood, and If you can't look in someones skull and see that they have a

male or female brain, ( the reports that the male brain and female brain are

not alike is very shaky new science) I really don't think there is a big

diffrence that we can prove. Though people feel strongly about it no matter ]

what it is.

Unless you argue the hormones are our feelings but that is another topic. It

just maybe it is only what you see in the mirror.

Where Is gender on the body? If your intesex and share male and

female traits this is a very tough question. Gender is not somthing on the

body or a organ like a bump sticking out of your brain. Gender is a type of

Self-perception. If humans were like how some birds are, unable to tell male

or female apart, gender would not even exist.

How do people know if their male or female? it comes from very early

Identifications that we make. Because our parents have a huge effect on

their young children,The parents sexual identification of their child's sex has

more to do with it then anything else. ( although, it is not the only factor,

but it is a huge one) I think we choose to accept or reject how other people

see our gender. (Would it matter what gender you felt like if you were alone

on a island?) :rolleye11

Why does anybody reject their gender? Because we don't remember

our first years of life it is hard to say what causes the social construct for

sex presception to fail someone. I don't think fail is the best word for it in

fact, but I'm at a loss for a better world. A lot of parents in the 1600's, rich

aristocrats of course, raised males as females and females as males. These

children's gender turned out to be what ever they were rased as, but of

course they were eccentric. Most children (back then) were very excepting

of the first sex that they were told, but, later on, huge social pressure

sometimes forced them to be the gender that their sex was, as adults. I

would have to say as social pressure changes, rejecting your gender and

declairing a new one is a way of learning to be comforable with your self

when you had social problems to begin with. I don't think that that is wrong

or right, it is a way to adapt, what ever makes the boat float is o.k. with me.

Social pressure has little to do with a operation at birth. But, if the

parent's still have issues with the sex that is assigned,

then they pass that anxiety on to their children, then they refuse to talk

about it. That has a major impact! If your intersex, you had male and female

trait to begin with, which one of them is the wrong body part on your body,

or the wrong trait? Neather, as far as I see,

That is why I think it doesn't matter, most of the time, if you raise a person

male or female, it is only when social pressure of friends and family pushes

the idea that something is wrong with you.

As long as the gender role that you are placed in is CONSISTANT, and you

allowed to behave as you feel,( and you are well loved) gender becomes

unimportant.

Who cares???"

I do. If I am the only person comfortble with my body and how I view gender then I'm a important member of BLO.

I have healed, body and soul, I'm trying to pass that healing along :grouphug0

I also find it hard to deal with when people say "those Doctors"

From doctor to doctor, can be as different as, person to person.

If you knew a handfull of gay people that you had terriblely unpleasant

encounters with, would you call all gay people " those gays?"

The problem is privacy. When should the line be drawn?

Dana Gold

08-12-04, 06:36 PM

quote:

"allowed to behave as you feel,( and you are well loved)"

Allowed to evolve into the gender most natural for the person and be supported and loved by parents during the growing up process...... these are 2 so very neglected factors by parents and the others in the child's environment. Social stressors from others and being regarded as abnormal for being "oneself" is the primary casual factor for "gender problems" and low self-esteem. Many here at BLO know that.

Too much emphasis is placed on why a person is "gender variant" or "rebelling" against the assigned gender instead of just acknowledging the person's expression as a reality as some ancient societies did. Look at all the research on gender development. It is logical to presume that it is multi-factored, not just one or two (social, biological). Whatever the etiology, the traditional and fundamentalist concept of the "gender box" is just that...a box that is suppressive .....restricting natural evolution of the person's psyche and intrinsic sense of self to without hindrance and undue influence attain a state of self-realization and self-acceptance and express themselves accordingly during the course of daily life.

quote: "If humans were like how some birds are, unable to tell male
or female apart, gender would not even exist".

Interesting concept, Julanne. I have often wondered if what is considered gender and sex "variances" in this society would matter to a society that is comprised solely of anatomically and psychologically (gender) androgynous beings. Hmmmm...sounds a little bit like paradise to me, perhaps boring..... but there certainly wouldn't be the problems so often discussed here at BLO....or would they? Alas, that is only a fantasy...back to Earth :sick: ...

where there is just so much to look forward to: :lightning :push: :broken_he :brick:

Dana

Jules

08-13-04, 06:12 AM

Good thoughts Dana!

P.S. Peter I wasn't taking your words out of context.

The reason I asked how someone could be raised the wrong sex, was based on the

agrument that your gender is constructed very young by your parents. It has been

proven that parents can pass call kind of behavoir, and soical anxiety on to their

children, including uncertantys about gender.

uriela

08-14-04, 10:21 AM

Jules,

Are you saying that gender is socially constructed?

Uriela

Meresa

08-14-04, 11:40 AM

Jules,

Are you saying that gender is socially constructed?

Uriela

Mickey Diamond would disagree with that idea Jules, and so would I.

Let us not forget the Reimer case and its tragic result. To me, that makes a pretty strong case for gender being hardwired.

miriam

08-14-04, 06:00 PM

Is gender a social construct?

No and yes. Gender is more than just the way you identify (gender identity). I think that the way you see yourself is in a way hard coded. But it is also influenced by the hormones made/received when the embryo is only eight weeks old. And with transsexual people the gender identity can even change, which is an indication that this ‘hard coded’ information can be changed over the years.

With the John/Joan-case we’ve seen that you can’t changes a boy’s gender identity by telling him he really is a girl.

But I think that gender presentation (the way you express yourself to other people - gender role behavior) and gender role (the way people expect you to behave) are social constructs. A couple of years ago the ‘perfect female gender role’ required women in Afghanistan to hide their face, to obey their husband and to stay home to take care for their children. In the Netherlands the perfect female gender role is totally different: self-confident, independent, working women.

If your gender presentation differs too much from the ‘perfect gender role’, you are in trouble. That’s why many women in Afghanistan still wear a burka (chador). But as we all know there have been a few changes in Afghanistan and maybe in let’s say 20 to 40 years the women in Afghanistan will behave exactly as the women in the Netherlands.

In short: when society changes, the idea of gender role and gender role behavior can change too and that makes them a social construct.

I believe this is quite similar to what has happened to many lesbian women I know; 20-30 years ago many of them were immediately recognizable as being lesbians (short hair, no make-up, clothing that was not exactly ‘lady like’). Was that really an expression of a lesbian identity? Don’t think so, because those people still are lesbians, but today society has accepted lesbian women and they’ve changed to lipstick lesbians. Their presentation might have changed because of the changes in society, but their identity (uhh, is being lesbian really an identity??) has not changed.

Groeten, Miriam

PS. I’ve been away the last 3 or 4 weeks because of my vacation in France. Last week we had quite a car accident (car and caravan trailer crashed, no injuries). Maybe I’ll post a nice pic of the accident later this week. Miriam

Dana Gold

08-19-04, 12:25 PM

Are you saying that gender is socially constructed?
I think (maybe) what Julanne was trying to say is that gender may be socially induced and enforced ....how children are raised as girl or boy with concommitant gender "expectations" or in the instance of the child with an intersex condition "constructed" both physically and psychologically as male or female. In some instances, that imposition may be contrary to the person's eventual naturally evolved gender and the environment (parents, etc.) may persist to force it upon the child. Although the child may for many reasons (fear, acceptance, love) believe and accept that "forced" gender, underlying psychology and intrinsic feelings may result into a kind of assimilation that manifests itself in a "gender blend" (androgyny) OR the child will "rebel" and wish to transition (psychologically, physically, or both ) into the opposite of the reared (and induced) gender (or sex). This can occur in "transgendered", "transsexual" and "intersexed" people.

I really like what Jim Costich wrote and posted a while back in his post entitled Round the next bend and dated 2-21-04....here it is:

The last paragraph "hits the nail on the (proverbial) head".

http://www.bodieslikeours.org/forums/showthread.php?p=3440#post3440

Yes, I know, I didn't have smilies; ....um, well........ :2in1: :confused3

Ms Dana Gold

Jules

08-19-04, 01:42 PM

We have heard some argue that gender is hardwired. Well the term hardwired

must be explained better, but what I think is being argued is gender is

instinctive and wired in the brain((Transsexualism can be considered to

be a neuro-developmental condition. Several sexually dimorphic nuclei have

been found in the hypothalamic area of the brain (Swaab & Fliers, 1985; Allen

& Gorski, 1990; Swaab et al, 2001)).

P.S. Happy Birthday Renee Richards 77 ( does anybody know who he

is?) :birthday:

Here is the problem with that theory. Everyone knows that when a bird

builds a nest, that is instinctive. You could isolate that bird from other birds

for ten years, let it go, and it will still remember how to build that nest. The

bird was never taught how to build that nest, it was instinctive.

Johnathan Swift wrote Robinson Crusoe. What was exsplained in this

book is that when people are isolated from people long enough, they forget

who they are, what sex they are, and finaly, they forget they are even

human. Swift got this story from shipwreck survivors who had spent time in

isolation on desert islands. Some of these survivors could never be put back

into the modern world again, they had forgotten to much and they were not

able to get their identities back again. :push: Now, I ask you all, if gender is

not a social construct, how could it be forgotten? Turtles don't ever forget

how do dig holes for a nest, even after twenty years of never seeing another

turtle.

Birds don't forget how to build nests. But do the same thing to a human

and "BANG" You forget your name, your gender, How to tell time, and in the

worst case, that your even human. This has been proven in prisions with

imates who are put in isolation for to long...Social construct..breaks down, so

doesn't our identities.

I might also bring up Victor, The boy of Averyron.(?-1828) This was a young

toddler who was left to die in the woods by his parents, but lived. People had

caught glimpses of him in the wild, on all fours, digging up roots, eating dead

carcasses living like an animal.

When he was about twelve (birth age unknown) He wandered into the city

of France and Jean- Marc Itard tried to trasform him into a civilized person.

Victor never learned to speak, never understood gender, or that he was a

male, and never interacted with people normaly. Victor was very important in

helping people understand that things like our name, our language, and our

identitys depend on social environment. If gender is hardwired Victor

should have known he was a male regardless of his isolation. But he didn't.

There is also a problem with the study of the brain in the hypothalamic area

after someone dies. This part of the brain distorts after death. Also

transexuals that take hormone replacement alter the way there brain ws

naturally. Any study of a dead brain is a bad example of how it worked while

it was alive, this is well known. SO while a dead brain sliced up may give

us some hints of the working parts, the best way to study the mind of

somebody, is when they are alive. :doh:

Peter

08-19-04, 01:54 PM

Hi Jules,

Interesting theory, but are you sure Jonathan Swift interviewed ship-wreck survivors? The novel "Robinson Cruso" was written by Daniel Defoe. Jonathan Swift is best known for writing "Gullivar's Travels", and although many of the characters in that novel are memorable, I doubt that they were based upon interviews in the field.

Peter

Dana Gold

08-19-04, 02:17 PM

P.S. Happy Birthday Renee Richards 77 ( does anybody know who he

is?)

A little respect here, Julanne, please.....as long as we are talking gender: Renee Richards (a post-op male to female transsexual human being) ought to be referred to as she..............

Jules

08-19-04, 05:25 PM

Yes your right Peter, Daniel Defoe did write Rob.Crusoe. I stand

corrected. :pat: Jonathan Swift did use sailors storys for Gov.Trav. and

wrote that story about the political problems of his time,it is not just a

children's story. If you read the story of "Robinson Crusoe, then you should

understand its meaning and the pont I was making. With all the reading I do

it is not uncommon for me to get the authors names switched durring

a "momment." It is a part of my deslixa.

Both authors wrote in about the same century. Robinson Crusoe, because of

its fame, continued to be published, and tranformed for over two centuries.

By 1895, 196 editions of Robinson Crusoe had been published, 114 revisions,

and 110 translations–translations in Dutch, Hebrew,and many more.... It has

been packaged as a picture book no text; this view was consistent with a

tendency to view it as a children's book, a fate it shares with Gulliver's

Travels.

Sorry Dana, slip of the tounge, you are correct! I at least got her birthday

right. :idea2:

Dana Gold

08-19-04, 06:48 PM

First of all, thank you, Julanne, for the gender correction :regular_s .

Your bringing up the subject of the Wild Boy of France piqued my curiosity and I went to a web-site featuring books and essays on human development ; specifically in feral children. Some of the resources likened severe autism to children being brought up bereft of human contact, especially human language.. Human language according to developmental theorists is crucial to integration of neuronal and psychological brain (Broca's area) function. Up to now various studies incorporating language and brain development and function (and ultimately social function as well) have shown that the two are critically interdependant. How does language and its use affect (or disaffect) human psychological development. The web-site in that context brings up the age-old discusssion of nature vs nurture and I have always contended that developmental etiology of who we are (not only gender, mind you) is a complex interaction of many factors. So naturally I found the excerpt and link below quite intriguing and enlightening.
An excerpt from the link below (found on the feral children website: )

Nature or nurture? These questions have tainted political, sociocultural and scientific processes for thousands of years. Its simplicity — suggesting that the essence of a person is the inevitable product of one or the other — genes or learning — is seductive. The human mind tends to prefer simple linear explanations rather than complex ambiguity. Unfortunately, simple categorical explanations of humankind feed destructive belief systems and deflect from a healthy process of inquiry about our true complexity. We now know more about our genes and more about the influence of experience on shaping biological systems that ever before. What do these advances tell us about the nature or nurture debate? Simply, they tell us that this is a foolish argument. Humans are the product of nature and nurture. Genes and experience are interdependent. Genes are merely chemicals and without "experience" — with no context, no microenviromental signals to guide their activation or deactivation —create nothing. And "experiences" without a genomic matrix cannot create, regulate or replicate life of any form. The complex process of creating a human being —and humanity — requires both.

Complete test of above excerpt: http://www.feralchildren.com/en/pager.php?df=perry2002

The natural world at its finest display of symbiosis manifests the most beautiful complex life entities...any coral reef is a good example. .... simply put: nature and nature complement each other and it is this symbiosis that (if left to naturally evolve and develop based upon the mutual and supportive interaction between person and environment) will manifest itself into a whole and productive life entity within society. I stand by the proposition that natural symbiosis (between peoples) has not only been stifled within society, but that the same process has been "interrupted" and misdirected within the singular human being by "forces" polluted and hence guided by belief systems resulting in "machinations" that fail to recognize and acknowledge (and actively try to suppress) the diversity of human gender and sexual expression

Oh !?...No smilies?...not when I get "serious" in my "science nerd" world.

Now ok: Dana :nerd: ......gee, suddenly hungry: mmmm: :tounge_sm :pizza: :cake: ..huh? ...ohhh... too bad.. no ice cream "smilie"