Jules your inbox is full

[c j]

Hi Jules

Apologies for taking so long to get back to you,its obviously going to take me sometime to work out this forum,as it was only this morning that I became aware of this private post to me.I shall have to open my eyes wider in future.
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You wrote...........
Hello! SO what do you think of the site so far?
Ive been posting for sometime. I read that you have cah?
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The forum if ok Jules,does not apper to attract too much traffic though,is there a reason for this,such as the nothern summer etc ?
I have noticed your posts which are very interesting may I add.
I am xxy and identify as xxy/androgynous my hormone of choice is oestrogen,I was diagnosed 4 yrs back and was started on a 10 day cycle of testosterone injections which had a disasterous effect on me both mentally and physically.
From this experience,I found a need to take control and so set out on a path of self discovery,I have met some very interesting people along the way including fellow xxy's who are capable (as I am) of looking outside the square.
Mentally I feel great but,worry so much about society accepting me for who I am,I attend weekly counseling sessions which "DOES" help but,at the end of the day its me with my bag of tricks who has to face society and as you know,it can be a cruel world out there.

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You wrote...............
I kind of hang around here. Not to many people want to talk about my intersexed condition so I come here.
What brought you here, or how did yoy find us
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I came here for similar reasons to you,I have been involved in xxy/klinefelter related sites/groups since diagnoses.These groups are mostly made up of xxy's on large doses of testosterone chasing that forever elusive male identity or machoism.
In the innitial stages of diagnoses I found these groups to be very benificial but as time went on,I became more distant from what they believed in.This forum appears to be a bit of a mixed bag where (as you so rightly say) people are willing to discuss issue's close to our hearts

Love and peace to you

Canice.

[ptrinkl108]

Hi Canice,

I found your post interesting. It does seem to be slow around here lately, which I figure is due to this being the end of August, and here in the Northern hemisphere the end of summer, when many people try to go on vacation.
I would like to hear more about oestrogen versus testosterone. I have a friend whose life is made miserable through testosterone treatments for Klienfelter's syndrome, and I would like to hear more about what the different hormones feel like.

Peter

[Jules]

:sign16: I did want to say hello. I'm glad you take the time to read my posts and find them interesting. I have been very busy this week. Feel free to e-mail me I love to chat

[c j]

[COLOR=Blue]Hi Peter

It depends on how one identify's and what one is comfortable with,I can only speak for myself when I say what a horrid experience I had with testosterone.

Upon diagnoses of xxy my endocrinologist at that time told me he could make a man out of me by injecting me with testosterone and by doing so this would speed up puberty and the cycle would be completed within 3-4yrs.He ommited to ask me if this was what I wanted or indeed never told me if there was an alternative to testosterone.

So began for me,two yrs of utter and complete hell which brought me to the brink of putting an end to it all,I was screaming out in silence hoping that someone would come to my rescue and wake me up,as though I was having a bad dream..............of course no one ever came.

Thankfully through this wonderful learning tool of WWW I came upon a gender centre which happened to be located just down the road from me here in Sydney and with the aid of a wonderful counselor,by the name of Elizabeth Anne I have been able to take control of who I am/what I am.

Life is now looking better with each passing day,it feels as though I have been re-born and my life has just begun.[/COLOR]

[COLOR=DarkOrange]How does your friend identify 'Peter' is he happy with his male identity or does he feel as I do "Androgynous" ? [/COLOR]

[COLOR=Blue]Love and peace
Canice[/COLOR]

I would like to hear more about oestrogen versus testosterone. I have a friend whose life is made miserable through testosterone treatments for Klienfelter's syndrome, and I would like to hear more about what the different hormones feel like.

[c j]

[COLOR=Blue]Thanks for the welcome Julanne

When something in the forum grabs my attention I shall respond to it and I am sure you will also join in and we can go from there.I have much to say...........I just need the right moment to say it.

Love and peace
Canice[/COLOR]

[QUOTE=Jules]:sign16: I did want to say hello. I'm glad you take the time to read my posts and find them interesting. I have been very busy this week. Feel free to e-mail me I love to chat[/QUOTE]

[ptrinkl108]

Hi Canice,

My friend with klienfelter's syndrome describes similar negative experiences with Testosterone, and was also told very little about possible outcomes before starting treatments. My friend says that he wishes that he had never started the Testosterone treatments and liked his body better before treatment. He definitely identifies as "androgyn" and speaks of breaking the gender binary. He has an essay in Alice Dreger's book "Intersex in an Age of Ethics" where you can read more about his story. (My apologies for using the "he" pronoun, I just could not think of anything better.)

I should probably not say too much about him, and rather speak to my own experience. Myself, I identify as male even though I have serious questions about gender. When I was about four or five years old, and thinking about gender, I was aware that I had been born with an intersex anatomy that had features commonly associated with both sexes. While other boys my age associated with dinosaurs and other powerful action figures, I associated with the aquatic world. I felt like a sea creature in my better moments, and like an alien from outer space in my more alienated moments. There was no "terra firma" for me - a feeling that a psychiatrist once remarked about in me.
Under the modern three-part breakdown of sex, gender, and sexuality - gender is something between the ears. Everyone has different ears. When I was younger, in my David Bowie days, I strove to be androgynous. To be honest, it was not something that made me happy. Regardless of whether I identify as male or androgynous, I am still very alone and separated from the world around me. I sometimes see androgyny as something that is co-opted by marketing forces as another product to sell promising to make one more attractive. These days, I generally try to pass a just another guy walking down the street, because I don't want to be the subject of unwanted hostility. I try to be invisible rather than androgynous.
I might have been happier in life if I had been assigned a female sex. But that is only conjecture at this point. I have seen bumper stickers on cars that say "My Religion Is Kindness". I would like to have a sticker saying "My Gender Is Kindness".

Peter

[c j]

Hi Peter

Sounds as though you have a very interesting friend

My friend says that he wishes that he had never started the Testosterone treatments and liked his body better before treatment. He definitely identifies as "androgyn" and speaks of breaking the gender binary.

Breaking the 'Gender Binary' is something which I have done purely and simply for the sake of my sanity.In relation to your friend might I sugest getting in touch with a gender centre/base/organization in your area,where does your friend live ?

Help is out there Peter its simply a matter of your friend reaching out,perhaps if your friend were to start from here,hopefully they will be able to find something of benefit http://www.gendercentre.org.au/sitemap.htm

He has an essay in Alice Dreger's book "Intersex in an Age of Ethics" where you can read more about his story.

How do I get a copy of the book?

These days, I generally try to pass a just another guy walking down the street, because I don't want to be the subject of unwanted hostility. I try to be invisible rather than androgynous.

I can relate to this

I might have been happier in life if I had been assigned a female sex. But that is only conjecture at this point. I have seen bumper stickers on cars that say "My Religion Is Kindness". I would like to have a sticker saying "My Gender Is Kindness".

Something which I have thought about many times over............I really like that sticker idea of yours

Love and peace
Canice

[Jules]

[QUOTE=ptrinkl108]
Under the modern three-part breakdown of sex, gender, and sexuality - gender is something between the ears. Everyone has different ears. When I was younger, in my David Bowie days, I strove to be androgynous. To be honest, it was not something that made me happy. Regardless of whether I identify as male or androgynous, I am still very alone and separated from the world around me. I sometimes see androgyny as something that is co-opted by marketing forces as another product to sell promising to make one more attractive. These days, I generally try to pass a just another guy walking down the street, because I don't want to be the subject of unwanted hostility. I try to be invisible rather than androgynous.
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Would you call Androgynous being gender fluid? I understand gender as being

only between the ears in relation to the fact that the part of ourselves that

makes gender a social construst comes from our VERY large cerebellum. It is

because this part of the human brain is so large and developed that the

socialization that makes people who and what they are happen. We still

though depend on socialization to understand gender in the first place. A

good example of this is my Dog Alex :bowwow: . My dog does not view

people in terms of male or female, what my dog underststands is human

behavoir. Alex distrusts men and would attack all of them when they enter

my house. But when a intersexed man comes to my house ( one who has

female behavoir triats) Alex loves him.

The same thing happens when a very femm gay man enters

my house, Alex loves him and wags his tail. Now, does my dog really

understand what a male or female is, or does my dog just understand how

people behave, and respond to people's Behavoir? Another good

question is this, if you had a dog or a bird or a hamster could you get a

feeling of Androgyny and/or G.I.D. from having your pet idenify you as male

or female? Is not "Androgyny" a discricription of how other people see you,

not how you see yourself? Does not gender depend on other people?

[Jules]

Lets look at other parts of what makes people unique in their social

construct, their clothing. You could ask if: What we choose to wear is a

social construct, or is it in the brain?

Because we have large cerebral lobes, we do things much different then

other animals. So the answer, like Miram has said, is both, sort of. People

must wear some type of clothes because we don’t have the body hair that

animals do. But, the clothes we wear is very much influenced by our families

and our peers and our gender, and it influences our sexual behavior as well

as the pecking order of people. Monkey’s socialization habits include random

grabbing of genitals to show pecking order, and a male monkey grabbing the

female sexual organs show arousal of the male. If monkeys had clothing over

their genitals this practice would be very hard to do. An intersexed monkey

would not have the social problems that an intersex person can have

because classifying sex is not apart of the social order of monkeys. Many

male monkeys have homosexual sex with other monkeys as a dominance issue

not a sexual issue. Clothing is a social construct of humans because the

social pecking order of humans does not include the random grabbing of

genitals. This is why our hormones change our faces and bodies to tell the

difference between male and female. This is also why the type of clothing

we wear is also is a part of the social pecking order of people. The social

construct of gender becomes so important because It gives people clues as

to how to address you. It really does not matter inside of you if feel like a

male, female, or androgynous, as long as you can give other people those

clues as to how to address you and act toward you. This is why I insist that

gender is a social construct at least in the outward construct of it. But the

reason why it is a construct is largely connected to the fact that we have a

much larger cerebral cortex. This allows us to have language, gender

construct, clothing and stops us from acting like dogs (sniffing genitals to

smell pheromones) or monkeys (grabbing genital to show pecking order).

Peter is right saying that gender is between the ears but what gender serves

is a way for people to interact socially, so I am also right also saying the

purpose of gender serves a social construct. Dogs, birds, and monkeys do

not identify with this type of social construct, it is uniquely human.

The key to applying this to intersex, is understanding that you can drive your

self crazy trying to spit hairs between understanding gender. Take the

cosmological argument as an example. Who created the universe?

Was it GOD? One can argue that that the universe was always there, or one

can say that GOD created the universe, but who created GOD? Let’s say that

they are two kinds of beings, dependant and independent A dependant being

like humans depend on their parents for birth. (A causes B which causes C )

A non-dependant being has no explanation because someone had to start

(A) the cycle and only a non-dependant being can start that. The

argument is, if A caused B which caused C that is enough explanation

because a non-dependant being was always there to start A.

Also ther is the issue of brute fact. That fact is some things have NO

explanation! So a non- dependent being did not hae to be there to start A

because it is non-explainable! My case of intersex (male with out a phallus) is

non-exspanable. Why humans developed a huge cerebral cortex that gives

us our understanding of gender has, yet, no explanation! Why does intersex

develop in a species that has strict sex consruct of male or female ?????

:dunno: I could drive myself crazy trying to think about it to long.

[ptrinkl108]

Hi Jules,

Your notes certainly give me food for thought. You said "I could drive myself crazy trying to think about it too long". To me, that means that you think that gender and sexuality issues are problematic. I see that as a good thing in you. Why should complex issues be simple? There are so many aspects of gender - gender in relation to sex, gender as a social construct, gender and individual identity, gender as social roles etc. that I too often drive myself somewhat crazy. At a young age, I realized that I would never be a good social theorist, because I would drive myself crazy rather than clarify issues.
You mentioned the issues of androgny/GID in hampsters. This is something that I never thought about before. I think that androgny and GID can be very different issues. I my case, I never was good looking enough to really pull off a David Bowie look. Once, I remember a woman who knew that I was intersex complained about my trying to look androgynous. She though that my frumpy self was ok as it was, and she said that she had grave reservations about my trying to look androgynous. Looking back at that conversation long ago in a record store, I think that she might have been partially right. GID can be something totally different than androgny and is often marked by years of inner misery and pain. As your hampster does not speak English, I assume it will be difficult to dicover the extent to which she/he feels androgynous or GID issues. Human language and a rich symbolic world are central to why we feel a difference between sex and gender. Among many animals, there is a difference between sex and sexuality as many animals are homosexual or bi-sexual. I agree that gender is a social construct as is the rest of the social world. Hot topics are questions asking whether science is a social construct. If a woman says "I am not a woman", she means I am not the woman who you socially constructed. Many interesting topics.

Peter