ISNA Puzzle ?

[Sophie338]

Hi :smile:

I am still left wondering if Cheryl Chase or ISNA have made any comments speaking out against masculinising IGM? Most of the time they seem to discuss feminising procedures. I am just wondering if they have, and if so what thier position on Masculinising surgery is.

All the best

Hugs :grouphug0
Sophie

[Betsy]

I don't know that they've ever differentiated the two. I do know however that when doing public education, you kind of need to sometimes use the simplest to understand model and feminizing surgery is generally easier to explain and easier understood.

Betsy

[Sophie338]

Hi Betsy :smile:

Oddly enough I did just find a link to a thread underneath this one which has something to do with the confusion I was having. (Brilliantly revamped website is this :ARMS1:)

I will tell you what is puzzling me, there was some debate (It seems here too) about ISNA not being helpful over people who had endured masculinising IGM. From the thread I read that this has more to do with people who changed gender roles etc after being operated on as kids.

Two points were in my mind, Firstly that the original "surgery" could be backhandedly given a sort of validity if the idea of "Gender change" is applied.
In my case the original assignation of "male" is validated were I to define myself as having changed sex. This backhandedly validates the surgery.
So I can see where ISNA were coming from when saying: (It was Monica who said this.. in the "Trans Intersex Query" thread)

Inaccurate claims of intersex status by trans people causes some people with intersex conditions real emotional pain and trauma--and we hear about this regularly via email and phone. Moreover, the inclusion of intersex in transgender issues tends to erase the very real needs of people with intersex conditions.

Which makes sense really because if someone is described as "Transgender" in the sense of changing from one to the other, This has the underlying assumption that someone was born outwardly one sex or the surgery to assign them a given sex during childhood was successeful or valid.

The second point which I think is more relevant to my original question is the assumption by many people I know who I have discussed Intersex issues with, is the fact that they have gained the impression that only feminising IGM occurs. And it is often quite hard to find statistics or figures on that particular subject. For me, the question is mainly about the availability of information. I just have not found it on the ISNA website. They seem to be revamping it though. (Wont ever be as good as the revamp here though :ARMS1:)

See how it goes :smile:

Hugs

:grouphug0

Sophie

[Betsy]

Hi Sophie, I'm going to try and tackle this but will likely post again later tonight. I'm getting ready to leave for a class I am teaching this evening and am feeling woefully unprepared for.

The vast majority of surgeries done are feminizing---that's simply a numbers game due the frequency of certain IS manifestations. It also by association becomes a word game because it is dependent on how we define ourselves now and how others define us when they pull a scalpal out and start cutting.

Does someone who is sex reassigned in infancy define themselves as trans* when they grow up? Does someone who reclaims what was stolen from them in childhood identify themselves as trans*?

It's quite well-known that a small but insignificant number of people with intersex conditions change genders at some point...and I don't think ISNA denies this. In fact, I know they don't.

One of the reasons you don't see hard and fast numbers is because many situations are so rare, they can't be polled with any accuracy. Then there is the issue of secrecy...how many had surgery and don't know?

I disagree with your statement about happiness in assigned gender as somehow validating surgery. Gender satisfaction has nothing to do with the fact that someone else made that choice for you and cut you to reinforce it without your consent. Doing surgery like that is a numbers game for the docs as well, because if 65% is happy (a hypothetical number that is likely highly inaccurate) they then have the odds on their side. But what about that other 35%???? They have lost their chance to grow up without interference.

It's like you lived alongside a playground and during the day it's full of kids. At 2am, you expect that playground to not have children on it but would you risk firing a gun into it because the odds are you won't hit anyone? Of course not, but in a sense, thats what surgery is like sometimes.

Going a bit further on the IS/trans demarcation, I don't think there is dismissal of those who do have a queer body who then change genders or even have more surgery. The problem is those who do not have an IS condition and try to co-opt our existance to suit themselves. There are many out there who would like to see a diagnosis of brain intersex or a blending of the two for both political and personal goals. I'm not saying anything you don't know.

Finally, back to ISNA. ISNA is not a support group, but rather they are an issue advocacy organization working to reduce the numbers of non-consensual surgeries done on kids and changing the way medicine regards us and treats us. In that sense, if an adult went to them looking for help regarding their adult situation, they wouldn't be able to help so much because that is not their focus. That's more what Bodies does. Bodies is very much a numbers game as well---to show people like Baskin and others that there are lots of upset people, and to encourage more people to speak out about their own history.

Betsy

[Dana Gold]

well-known that a small but insignificant number of people with intersex conditions change genders at some point

I like this excerpt from Monica Casper ….Post # 9 in the thread link below..... it says it all, without excluding or demarcating anybody .....the "big picture" is quite simple, even for those "insignificant" numbers of queer-bodies who "come back" to what's left of the "original home"...after being initially "kicked out".

At the heart of ISNA's mission is fostering social acceptance of all bodies--be they intersex or not, trans or not, queer or not--and fostering informed consent for people to decide what happens to their bodies. Many people with intersex conditions have choice stripped from them when they are operated on as children, while many trans people have choice stripped from them when they are unable to obtain the surgical care they want and need.

http://www.bodieslikeours.org/forums/showthread.php?t=443&highlight=intersexed+transition

Dana :pizza:

[Sophie338]

Hi Betsy :smile:

I disagree with your statement about happiness in assigned gender as somehow validating surgery. Gender satisfaction has nothing to do with the fact that someone else made that choice for you and cut you to reinforce it without your consent. Doing surgery like that is a numbers game for the docs as well, because if 65% (a hypothetical number that is likely highly inaccurate) they then have the odds on their side. But what about that other 35%???? They have lost their chance to grow up without interference.

Oh god no, that is not what I am saying at all :embaresse I am agreeing with you, What I am saying is when someone hears my history for example and says "Transsexual" or "transgendered" they are implying that the surgery done to me as a child was physically viable. Because they are assuming I later physically turned from one sex to another. I cetainly do not think that someone who is OK about the gender is happy about the surgery. If I identified as male I would still be roundly p**sed off about the surgery.


Sorry about that.

Hugs

:grouphug0

Sophie

[Betsy]

Ahhh.

It's quite well-known that a small but insignificant number of people with intersex conditions change genders at some point...and I don't think ISNA denies this.

Dana, you had to pick out my typo! It should have read "...not insignificant number..." My apologies for that SIGNIFICANT typo.

Oh god no, that is not what I am saying at all I am agreeing with you, What I am saying is when someone hears my history for example and says "Transsexual" or "transgendered" they are implying that the surgery done to me as a child was physically viable. Because they are assuming I later physically turned from one sex to another. I cetainly do not think that someone who is OK about the gender is happy about the surgery. If I identified as male I would still be roundly p**sed off about the surgery

I think we need to take a certain amount of responsibility for that one on one educating we all do in our daily lives if we are out in regards to our queer bodies. Those one on one personal conversations we have go far in educating people and correcting their misconceptions. It sucks and in a way is repulsive for us having to explain what the real deal is since choice was stolen from us, but it truly is the most effective way in my mind. it kind of makes us real people :cartman:

Betsy

[Sophie338]

Hi Betsy :smile:

I sort of gathered the typo was a typo :smile:

Those one on one personal conversations we have go far in educating people and correcting their misconceptions. It sucks and in a way is repulsive for us having to explain what the real deal is since choice was stolen from us, but it truly is the most effective way in my mind. it kind of makes us real people

This is basically what I was thinking. When I try to explain my situation. And yes I find it sucks as well. I often feel like I am having to justify things that do not need justifying. I often find that having to explain a lot of stuff before explaining where choice is taken out of the equation very hard. This is why I tend to focus a lot on the IGM, as really this is the main issue (for me). And I am not the worlds best educator. I am a typo sufferer too. :smile:

:grouphug0

Hugs

Sophie

[Dana Gold]

Dana, you had to pick out my typo! It should have read "...not insignificant number

Betsy, I did not feel the statement about "insignificant numbers" reflected your sentiments. You are not the kind of person who deems individuals insignificant. Actually, I'm the one who should apologize for being sarcastic in my response......I can be such a brat :sarcastic , sometimes, as the time I "scolded" Julanne for her he/she mistake.

Anyway, thanks for the "adjustment" :regular_s

Those one on one personal conversations we have go far in educating people and correcting their misconceptions.

I think so, too. Life to life (personal) communication of that sort is better for me than speaking in front of (or with) many individuals, because I can better focus on them as a person than as an "audience"...and usually, as here at the University for example, they know me or of me ...and therefore take what I have to say as from the heart and not a textbook or heresay from ignorant "know-it-alls". I don't justify anymore because I've found the ones who accept me the most, ask the least as to what and why, as opposed to those who would put me "under the microscope"...I just tell them my life experience and experiences of others, keeping it on a human basis, so they can feel what I relate.... instead of from a clinical perspective ... which tends to dilute the overall theme of shame, secrecy, and the "stripping away" of body and mind self-determination from infancy into adulthood of the individual who comes into this world with ambiguous primary and/or secondary anatomic sex characteristics. As for any homo/trans/intersex-phobes? I try to maintain my dignity and limit interaction to basic civility and then only if absolutely called for.... Hi, how are you?..thank you etc, :angel_smi while my mind thinks f**k you ! :tongue:

Dana :whipg:

[Betsy]

Betsy, I did not feel the statement about "insignificant numbers" reflected your sentiments. You are not the kind of person who deems individuals insignificant.

Whew. I went to sleep last night thinking I had inadvertantly offended my dear friends. :sad_smile :pat:

Betsy
There oughta be a law...against typos made without my consent

[Dana Gold]

Oh gosh, Betsy, now I am sorry for being a brat.. :redface:

I like your "fine print" about typo law :biggrin:

Dana :girl_hug:

[Sophie338]

Hi Betsy :smile:

Whew. I went to sleep last night thinking I had inadvertantly offended my dear friends. :sad_smile :pat:

With me it is worse, my grammar makes for a grand typo sometimes.

:grouphug0

Sophie

[Betsy]

On the radio right now (online even...WXPN from Philadelphia (http://www.xpn.org)) which is a public station meaning good music and no commercials, they are playing some really great music for the light lunch. Since I spend so much time bathed in the glow of my monitor, I have some really good speakers and enjoy disturbing the neighbors. But I digress...

And yes I find it sucks as well. I often feel like I am having to justify things that do not need justifying. I often find that having to explain a lot of stuff before explaining where choice is taken out of the equation very hard. This is why I tend to focus a lot on the IGM, as really this is the main issue (for me). And I am not the worlds best educator.

Think about the power though Sophie. By mutilating us and then having us speak out against it is much more powerful than any study, any lecture, any film. When you speak out, even in a one on one conversation, they can't claim that all is just ducky. I'm not a very spiritual person, but I do believe that perhaps my destiny was to be born with a queer body, have it cut, and then have the courage to be very public about it. Before my mom died and after she had confronted her own shame and secrecy about me, she told me she wished I had found that courage earlier so she could have been out here with us sharing her own story.

At the little pub in my neighborhood I go to, pertty much all the regulars know what I do in regards to my intersex work. If they didn't, they do now because they cut and framed the NY Times article and hung it on the wall. One night months ago I was in there and some woman asked what I do. I always joke that those are fateful words for the asker because they are about to get an on the fly intersex 101. They are expecting a simple answer and end up getting their notion of what makes us female or male turned upside down. Anyways, this woman asked and then declared, "That doesn't happen...it's propaganda of them homosexuals " I took a deep breath and with many eyes upon me to see I would react, calmly explained my own story and how what occurred to me is still happening about 5 times a day. Her world changed that day, and no news article, no study, no anything else could have done that because until she was forced to look into my eyes, while previously thinking we were a myth.

My point being (and yes, I do have one) is sucky or not, tell the world about your story. Instead of doing with self-pity, do it with pride and maybe with the thought that there is a reason for it and the power of your words and story. I've learned tons from you...I've learned tons from everyone who wanders through the door here. If you ever get the chance to hear me speak, you'll recognise parts of everyone's story and history when I lay out the agenda. Even last night, in the class I taught at Rutgers it occurred when I was asked, "Shouldn't there be a law or something?" Bits of what Peter has laid out, bits of what Emi has laid out, bits of Miriam's position were all incorporated in my response.

Betsy

[Sophie338]

Hi Betsy :smile: :smile:

Thanks this is much appreciated

My point being (and yes, I do have one) is sucky or not, tell the world about your story. Instead of doing with self-pity, do it with pride and maybe with the thought that there is a reason for it and the power of your words and story. I've learned tons from you...I've learned tons from everyone who wanders through the door here. If you ever get the chance to hear me speak, you'll recognise parts of everyone's story and history when I lay out the agenda. Even last night, in the class I taught at Rutgers it occurred when I was asked, "Shouldn't there be a law or something?" Bits of what Peter has laid out, bits of what Emi has laid out, bits of Miriam's position were all incorporated in my response.

My biggest downfall is self pity and anger. And yes you are right, I need to speak with pride really. I have learned a lot from you as well, about how there is an inner strength we can all draw upon from time to time and that the shame and secresy is not mine, but those who could not accept me at birth.

Your website means a lot to me, and the people on this website do as well, because it is sort of like having the warmth and freindship I have only felt at the AISSG before I came across this website, all year round. I feel a sense of safety, and yes, pride, pride that I am part of this community among people I feel it a privelege to know, (I Know I am going all Gooey).

Next time I am trying to explain things to someone, I will take your words and think about them. What you have said has really helped.

:ARMS1:

Hugs

:grouphug0

Sophie

[Betsy]

Five words Soph...

"This is who I am"

many big hugs to you, my friend

Betsy