an unusual question,perhaps ?

[CC]

Hi :wavey:

As you may or may not know,I am xxy and for almost six months now,I have been using oestrogen supplements due to gender dysphoria brought on by diagnoses of the extra chromosone and thereafter by my subsequent use of testosterone,or T.R.T.

The associated health issue's arising from my use of oestrogen are akin to my pre-diagnoses days,or to be more specific my memory and concentration levels have elasped to such an extent,to be of concern to me.

A friend of mine has suggested I take a miniscule amount of testosterone in combimation with oestrogen to counteract this,indeed it seems like a good idea and I was wondering if anyone here had any experience of this.

Canice.

[miriam]

Hello Canice,

A friend of mine has suggested I take a miniscule amount of testosterone in combimation with oestrogen to counteract this,indeed it seems like a good idea and I was wondering if anyone here had any experience of this.
I’ve heard from pregnant women that after their pregnancy they had serious memory and concentration problems. It’s very common and some people even call it ‘pregnancy dementia’. (See also this short interview (http://www.koolpages.com/admiringkate/DailyMailMay11.htm) with Kate Winslet: Kate, whose career has included starring roles in 'Titanic' and 'Sense and Sensibility', admitted last week: “I really did suffer this thing of pregnancy dementia and I have not got my brain back. It's really scary arriving at work and thinking, 'Bloody hell, where have those lines gone?'”)

By switching from male to female hormones, you probably experience a similar hormonal rollercoaster ride as pregnant women do.

But I wonder if you can change this by using some testosterone. Do you use anti-androgen medication? Does your body still make testosterone? If the answer to any of these questions is yes, extra testosterone will be useless.

I doubt if testosterone has anything to do with memory and concentration. Otherwise people like Silvester Stallone, Arnold Schwarzenegger and Jean-Claude Van Damme would be well known for their excellent and outstanding scientific work and all women with the androgen insensitivity syndrome would be retarded. I think that testosterone is important for feeling energetic. Before my gonadectomy I had a natural testosterone serum level of 52 nmol/L (which is enough for three guys). After the gonadectomy I was as smart (or stupid) as I was before, but I felt that I had lost all my energy. I’m always soooooo tired. Many women with AIS complain about tiredness after their gonadectomy, and many of them feel that the lack of testosterone has something to do with this feeling. But it is also possible that other hormones, of which the production is disturbed by the gonadectomy and the hormone replacement therapy, are responsible for this.

As usual, I’m not a medic and I really don’t know the correct answer to your question. You better ask your endo about this.

Groeten, Miriam

[Dana Gold]

Hi Canice,

Miriam stated some good points about testosterone. By switching from male to female hormones, you probably experience a similar hormonal rollercoaster ride as pregnant women do.

By the way, how much estrogen are you taking daily; in what form (compound) and method of administration (orally, injection)......too high estrogen (or estrone) may be the the cause also. Before you do anything, see an endocrinologist. When you do, ask about hypo-thyroidism and if you may have under-production of thyroid hormones....consequent tests, if the endo thinks so will be: T-3 & T-4 . It might be wise to follow-up on these levels as well: LH, FSH, estrogen, total testosterone, estradiol, and estrone.

One hormonal system can affect another, and some medications affect these as well.....are you taking anything else?....like blood pressure meds, diuretics ("water pills") or heartburn pills/histamine blockers, especially Tagamet.

Just a guideline, only the endo can say for sure.


Dana :smile::

[Sofie]

and for almost six months now,I have been using oestrogen supplements.........my memory and concentration levels have elasped to such an extent, to be of concern to me.
Hi Canice,

First, to answer you question, no, I have no experience with taking testosterone.

Are you having difficulties at work or studying?
Six months isn't a long time and it may take awhile to get used to the changes.
And as simple as it may sound, get some more sleep, when you are tired. Try having a nap during the afternoon, 10 minutes are enough. When there's something you can't memorize, you could write it down. Try to take it easy.

Here's a few more things I can think of:

Did you try taking smaller doses?

You could try cycling estrogens (as an example, if your normal dose is 2mg a day, try taking 2mg for the first 22 days and 1mg for 6 days)
An endo once told me that, unless you mess arround with high doses, estrogens are pretty safe.

Have some iron tablets, they often help against fatique.

Another thing that may help is changing your diet. You could try reducing your consumption of sugar, wheat flower or dairy-products. Sort of clears the brain (sometimes).

Sofie :coffee: :coffee:

[Dana Gold]

Hi again,

One of the things that has brought on lethargy and lack of concentration in me has been stress: particularly chronic anxiety and depression. I don't want to point at you and say you have it too, but it may be something to consider. Anxiety and depression deplete not just cognition and spirit, but also essential nutrients. A B-complex multi-vitamin daily with folic acid ( 400 microgram ) may help that part.

Dana

[CC]

Hello Miriam

By switching from male to female hormones, you probably experience a similar hormonal rollercoaster ride as pregnant women do.
But I wonder if you can change this by using some testosterone. Do you use anti-androgen medication? Does your body still make testosterone? If the answer to any of these questions is yes, extra testosterone will be useless.

An insight into what it means to be xxy http://www.klinefelter.org.uk/whatisKS.htm

I doubt if testosterone has anything to do with memory and concentration.

It has a great deal to do with memory and concentration,that's not to say the more you have,the smarter you are,in all sexes a certain amount is allocated for this purpose.

I had an appointment with my endocrinologist shortly after submitting my query to the forum,my suspicions were realised on getting back the results of my blood work,they showed.............

Oestrogen 220 the normal levels in female 400 - 1500 and male <160

Testosterone 2.6 normal female levels 2.5 - 3.5 much higher in males not sure exactly how much.

So as you can see,my levels are really low,I have decided to increase my oestrogen intake from 100 ug - 150 ug/day (patch)for a period of 6 weeks,a percentage of this will hopefully convert to testosterone,if it does not have that effect,after the 6 weeks I shall return to see him and have 100cc of oestrogen plus 50cc of testosterone implanted under my skin in the form of pellets,it apparently has a better absorbtion rate and will last for a duration of 6 months.

I know what I have to do to improve bodily function,I was hopeing by posting my query to the forum to find someone who had traveled this path before me,because for me,this is merely trial and error.

For xxy's who identify as male or intersex and who's hormone of choice is testosterone there exists a wealth of knowlege both on the internet and from personal experiences,it is a path I have walked upon and since,moved on.

Thus far on "my journey" I have come across a psychiatrist who wishes to include a short article on me in the medical journals to assist other xxy's who identify as anything but male.

Thanks once again for your reply

Canice.

[CC]

Hello Dana

Before you do anything, see an endocrinologist. When you do, ask about hypo-thyroidism and if you may have under-production of thyroid hormones....consequent tests, if the endo thinks so will be: T-3 & T-4 . It might be wise to follow-up on these levels as well: LH, FSH, estrogen, total testosterone, estradiol, and estrone.

Thanks for your reply,I had the above tests done recently and everything is above board,I am due to see my endo' again in 6 weeks time.

Canice.

[CC]

Hi Sofie

Thanks for the suggestions you offered in relation to my query,all much appreciated and indeed some I shall implement.

Canice.

[miriam]

Dear Canice,

I’m sorry if I gave you the impression I don’t know what XXY and/or Klinefelter is. But the information on the site you mentioned is not new to me. My questions about the use of anti-androgen medication and whether or not your body still makes testosterone were not meant to show I didn’t know a thing about the natural hormone balance of people with XXY and/or Klinefelter. They were rethorical questions because somebody who uses an anti-androgen drug AND extra testosterone would be like an amplifier with two buttons; one for louder and another for softer music. Pressing both buttons doesn’t help much. And a body that is still making testosterone will not benefit of just a miniscule amount extra testosterone.

You wrote that you have a testosterone serum level of 3.5

I assume that this is in nmol/L. According to the lab that is responsible for my blood tests, the normal range for testosterone in women is 0.8 to 2.8 and for men it is 8 to 25. These numbers are not absolute values: they are based on the people who were tested by a particular lab. So different labs often use different ranges. The National Institutes of Health, Bethesda MD, for example, uses a range of 9 to 55 (which is really high) for males between 20 and 49 years of age, and between 6 and 26 for men >=50Y. For women they use a range of <0.7 to 2.2 for postmenopausal women and 2.8 for ovulating women.
A value lower or higher than the range doesn’t mean that there is something wrong. It only means that you belong to the ten percent who has a lower or higher value. However, it also means that something CAN be wrong.

Genetic women and intersex people without testes only make testosterone in their adrenals and (if available) their ovaries. As I don’t have ovaries, the only place where I can make testosterone are my adrenals. My current testosterone serum level is <1 (actually, it is not possible to achieve reliable test results with a very low testosterone level. For that reason it should be read as ‘something between 0 and 1 nmol/L’ ) And as said before, I’m very tired, but I don’t have concentration problems. As a matter of fact, my memory and concentration are just fine.

You also said that you use oestrogen HRT now for six months. That also has a rather dramatic effect on your own testosterone production. Because of the HRT your body will think that the production of testosterone is high enough and it will use two hormones (LH and FHS, available in both men and women to regulate the amount of ‘sex hormones’) to tell your body that no more testosterone should be produced. If you compare the test results from today with te results from before you started to use oestrogen, you probably will see that your current testosterone serum level is lower. Adding more hormones (testosterone or estradiol) will confuse your body even more and possibly it will shut down your natural hormone production completely.

For the oestrogen level you mention you have to give me a bit more information before I can comment on that. Is the value you mentioned in pmol/L or in pg/mL? ( pmol/L = 3.67 x pg/mL). Both notations are used and it makes quite a difference...

Because you give high range value of 1400 I assume you used pmol/L wich is the same as (about) 380 pg/mL.

These are the range values for National Institutes of Health, Bethesda MD, as measured from 17 october 2001 till today (all values in pg/mL):

Male >=16yrs <20 – 56
Female
Untreated postmenopausal <20 – 30
Treated postmenopausal <20 – 93
Oral Contraceptives <20 – 102
Follicular Phase <20 – 160
Follicular Phase 2-3 days <20 – 84
Periovulatory phase ±3 days 34 – 400
Luteal phase 27 – 246

The value you mentioned in your post is probably 220 pmol/L which equals 60 pg/mL. That is not bad at all. My estradiol level varies between 120 and 160 pmol/L (33 and 44 pg/mL) and even though it is not really high, it is high enough to prevent from osteoporosis.

Please bear in mind that some HRT gives inaccurate estradiol levels. A rather common drug like Ethinyl Estradiol (not to be confused with estradiol) makes it impossible to get reliable test results.

The oestrogen level you mention is probably is not too low. The different labs always differentiate between ranges for females in different stages of their monthly cycle. The high numbers are not applicable to women on HRT. For someone on HRT 60 pg/mL is quite normal.

percentage of this will hopefully convert to testosterone

At http://www.genmapp.org/MAPPSet-Human/KEGG_Pathway_MAPPs/Hs_Androgen_and_Estrogen_Metabolism.htm you’ll find a chart that describes the androgen and estrogen metabolism. With an enzyme called aromatase it is possible to convert androgens into estrogens. Testosterone can be converted to estradiol-17beta and precursors of testosterone can be converted into estrone, which is a precursor of estradiol-17beta. But it is impossible to convert the so-called female hormones into androgens. But if you also use progestines, or if you consider to use tem, (the artificial form of progesterone) you should know that they have some side effects that make them work like a kind of weak androgen. BTW, it are the progestines that gave HRT a bad name; they are responsible for breast cancer (at least far more than progesterone of estradiol).

As far of the combination of testosterone and estradiol, I can’t be of much help. All I can say is that a long time ago I had a really high testosterone level AND a normal estradiol-17Beta level and after the gonadectomy I just had a lower level of estradiol-17Beta, The only difference I experienced is that I am tired since then, but it had no influence at all on my concentration and/or memory.

And as always... I’m not a medical professional, ask your endocrinologist what this means for you...

Groeten, Miriam