View Full Version : now being intersex is a choice??
Sophie338
10-31-04, 03:21 PM
Hi I have just come across this rather distrubing article
I wonder what people think
Hugs :)
Sophie .
_http://www.wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=37061_
(http://www.wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=37061)
Joseph Farah
Between The Lines
What's wrong with 'gay' marriage
Posted: February 11, 2004, 1:00 a.m. Eastern
© 2004 WorldNetDaily.com
Same-sex marriage promises to be the issue of 2004 - maybe the issue
of the first part of the 21st century.
It's a fascinating issue because it illustrates the way post-Christian
America has lost its moral bearings. Right is wrong. Left is right. Up
is down. Good is evil. That's what happens when a society no longer
finds itself accountable to any authority higher than public opinion
or the ruling of some judge.
Even the rule of law is falling victim to the same-sex marriage
fanatics, as the Massachusetts Supreme Judicial Court is instructing
the legislature in that commonwealth to pass a law. Whatever happened
to the notion of separation of powers? Whatever happened to the idea
that the legislative branch of government responded to the will of the
people?
Some opponents of same-sex marriage might take comfort from a recent
poll showing 60 percent of Americans oppose the idea. I don't. It
doesn't matter any more in a society that is ruled by unaccountable
judges - as the U.S. Supreme Court showed us we were last June by
striking down Texas' anti-sodomy laws and as the Massachusetts court
demonstrated more recently.
I also take no comfort from the fact that the National Annenberg
Election Survey showed 31 percent of Americans in favor of same-sex
marriage. That is an astonishingly high percentage of Americans who
believe in something preposterous - an idea so silly it would have
been laughed out of a courtroom or a legislature five years ago, 10
years ago, 20 years ago.
Why is it preposterous? Why is it silly?
Let's just talk about the same-sex marriage idea from a practical
perspective.
If it is, as proponents suggest, discrimination to deny same-sex
couples the privilege of marriage, then it is also discrimination to
deny the privilege to anyone else who wants to get married. Right?
"Well," you say, "who else wants to get married but is denied by the
state?"
Many people. And as soon as this taboo is broken, watch them line up.
How long do you suppose it will be, once same-sex marriage is a
reality, before brothers want to marry sisters? How long do you
suppose it will be before sisters want to marry sisters? How long do
you suppose it will be before brothers want to marry brothers?
How many same-sex marriage advocates want to go down that road?
Are you still with me?
If incestuous marriages don't scare you off, how about marriages
involving more than two people? What possible reason could we find for
"discriminating" against threesomes, foursomes, fivesomes, etc.?
I remember, being in the news business, a fellow in Great Britain who
wanted to marry his dog. How could we possibly "discriminate" against
an idea like that?
The truth is that most of us do believe in discrimination. In fact, we
discriminate every day when we make choices. I'm not sure you can live
without discriminating - between good food and bad, between safe
conduct and unsafe conduct, etc.
Discrimination can be a good thing - a necessary component of life.
It's a bad thing only when we use it prejudicially against people
because of immutable circumstances - like the color of their skin.
People who are homosexuals, transsexuals, transgendered people,
intersexuals, lesbians and metrosexuals are characterized in those
ways because of their conduct, their behavior, their choices.
Those folks have exactly the same rights as heterosexuals. They can
marry one member of the opposite sex. No one forces them to do so. But
they have that right.
This system has worked pretty well for the last 6,000 years. We tamper
with it at great peril to our society.
Joseph Farah is founder, editor and chief executive officer of WND and a
_nationally syndicated radio talk-show host_
(http://www.radioamerica.org/) . He
is also the founder of WND Books. In addition to his daily column in
WND, he
writes a nationally syndicated weekly column available to U.S.
newspapers
through _Creators Syndicate_ (http://www.creators.com/) .
Hi Sophie,
I agree with you that the article puts forward a bunch of garbage. I assume that the intersex as choice angle comes from the paragraph:
"People who are homosexuals, transsexuals, transgendered people, intersexuals, lesbians and metrosexuals are characterized in those ways because of their conduct, their behavior, their choices."
I don't think that being an intersex person is a conduct, behavior, or choice. Mr. Farah needs a course in Intersex 101. I certainly did not choose to be born with an intersex condition.
Increasingly, it seems that even if we do not embrace the LGBTI forumlation, our enemies are. I feel that it's important for us to recognize this. Some bigots believe that being LGBTI is a morally bad choice, and that people could choose to change. There is no scientific evidence to back this up and groups that try to change people are dangerous failures. Surgery definitely failed to change me into a non-intersex person. In the nineteenth century, I would have been somebody. Today, I am someone who they tried to surgically "normalize".
Maybe there are some intersex people who feel that what separates intersex people from LGBT people is that intersex people have no choice. I have heard this argument used to separate intersex people and transexual people. We could re-open all the past arguments as to wether intersex people can be transexual. I think that it is bad politics to get caught up in arguments about choice, when LGBTI people face a common enemy. IMHO, LGBTI people share a common desire to live our lives with self-determination and freedom from social repression.
Happy Holloween to all those who will be celebrating it tonight.
Peter
I think that it is bad politics to get caught up in arguments about choice, when LGBTI people face a common enemy. IMHO, LGBTI people share a common desire to live our lives with self-determination and freedom from social repression.
Why join the GLBTI? About 50 percent of the American people is facing the same enemy, not only the GLBTI. Peter, Tuesday is a great day to fight for your rights.
Groeten, Miriam
(Save the world: more trees, less bush)
"People who are homosexuals, transsexuals, transgendered people, intersexuals, lesbians and metrosexuals are characterized in those ways because of their conduct, their behavior, their choices."
Boy, is he ever showing his ignorance of the facts. :rolleye13 A simple google search would've shown him the error of his ways but I guess facts are what separate out run of the mill journalists and commentators and good ones.
Seriously though, it's one of the inherent dangers of LGBTI and it is an issue that is a concern: many orgs adopt an I without knowing the issues and that is not a good thing. I've seen intersex included under orientation by orgs such as GLMA (gay lesbian medical assn) who should know better. I'm pretty sure they've been shown the error of their ways and recently checked the form it was on via their website and it is changed there.
Regardless of any LGBTI politics however, WND is scary and this guy is pretty scary and it is people like these that have some pretty intense political aspirations about how this country should be and believe.
As Miriam pointed out, it's very important on Tuesday that everyone vote. Your vote does matter and it is important. We carried a voter registration link on the site for several months so saying you are not registered is not an excuse!
Betsy
Devante'
11-06-04, 09:56 PM
Hello everyone. Why is it that people feel that just because your intersexed you are gay? I can understand if your predominately "woman" and desire another women that you would be gay. There are few that are classified as "true" hermorphidites that have both sexes and could be straight either way they go. That sometimes gets my goat. Just because I may have both sexes.....completely...I am gay,...I dont think so. If I live as a man and only date females,..what??? And I am opposed to same sex marriage and voted against it. I chose to be right when I stand before God.
Sophie338
11-06-04, 10:36 PM
Hello Devante
I can understand if your predominately "woman" and desire another women that you would be gay. There are few that are classified as "true" hermorphidites that have both sexes and could be straight either way they go. That sometimes gets my goat. Just because I may have both sexes.....completely...I am gay,...I dont think so. If I live as a man and only date females,..what??? And I am opposed to same sex marriage and voted against it. I chose to be right when I stand before God.
I am an intersex person, who is predominantly female, and I am called Sophie.
and I was born on midnight oct31:nov1. I had no choice in this matter whatsoever. and yet people decided to assume things about me, on just these scant facts. This is called "urban myth". I will be honest I get some wierd things thrown at me from religious quarters, if they happen to know anything gnostic theology. (Aparrently "Sophie" + "intersex" = best not go there)
To others "intersex" becomes "intersexual" and then a metabolic or genetic condition is suddenly re written as a "sexual oreintation" or "Sexual disorder". The point is I have endured this silliness all my life. And yes, the gay or lesbian or transgender urban myths abound too. Because I am intersexed but predominantly female, Well it seems I have to be a lesbian by default. I am not, actually I am "asexual" (That is sanitised talk for not interested in sex).
It bothers me, but as long as people understand that I am me and not some textbook definition I am able to live with the occasional bout of misinformation.
Gd is not always my favourite entity either, when I stand before Gd I suspect the question will be "What were you playing at?"
The bottom line is this, because people do not understand fully what "intersex" as a word means in the wider world, we all get these urban myths, and they manifest in some bad ways. "Sociomedical emergency" usually has a consequence, that of being carved up by a suegeon as a child. there are other urban myths "XY = Boy!" and "XX = Girl" can lead to plenty of secresy and shame, even if you are fortunate enough to be spared "surgery".
It is a question of educating people, This is why this site is here, this is why people like Betsy, Emi and Miriam to mention a few work hard to educate people. what is so frustrating is when people such as the person who wrote the article I quoted at the beginning of this thread, imply that all this is a "choice" and "moral issue". Actually it is a Moral issue, surrounding medical ethics, is it medically ethical to lie about, mutilate, stigmatise and shame a person just because they have a metabolic condition or genetic condition that happens to affect the reproductive tract?
I see your point, though I have to admit, I dont get the Gd bit. I am not happy with Gd for my being born the way I was. But that is just me, others hold different views. and that is important, we are all different, we are not some stock medical model or urban myth. We are just human beings with things to be dealing with.
All the best
Sophie
Hi Devante',
You said "Why is it that people feel that just because your intersex that you are gay?" In your case, I wonder who exactly in your life feels that you are gay when apparently you are not? Is it your friends, family, or co-workers? I don't date, but I wonder about why if you are dating women on a regular basis, and identify as a guy that these issues are coming up? Do you look womanly or androgenous? How do people know that you are intersex? Do you know your intersex condition?
I don't know what is going on it your life, but I initially believe that you can very well be the victim of anti-gay bigotry. Just because you are not friendly to gay people does not mean that it is impossible for you to also be a victim of bigotry. Society often wants people to be something that they are not. Sometimes it puts straight people in a gay box. And many times it wants gay people to fit in a straight box. In both of these situations, social pressures lead to individual unhappiness. Maybe, someday you will come to see that the bigotry that holds that you might be gay when you are not, is the same bigotry that is against gay marriage.
My modest proposal is that you try to feel better about yourself. I know for myself, that the shame and secrecy surrounding intersex issues interfered with my being happy. It was socially seen as so important that I repress the truth about myself that I was very unhappy. I believe that I would have been better off if I had grown up in a world where it was acceptable to be open and honest about being an intersex person.
Peter
Dana Gold
11-08-04, 11:32 AM
Hi, Devante
Please, I would like to know the rationale you use to justify being against "same-sex" marriage when you yourself are intersexed and already must realize that applying categorical and pre-determined definitions of "sex" would be non-applicable to intersexed conditions that present with physical and/or chromosomal variations of both, not to mention the intrinisic sense of self, that we here at BLO know is not a "choice".
As for being "right" in God's eyes. Do you mean because of opposition to "same sex" marriage ensuring your acceptance by God?...or is , perhaps, because of some other factor?
It seems that this concept of choice, spoken of here and by some non-intersex people, may really mean morality.... therefore the question tends to lean toward: is being intersex immoral?......does God really feel that way?, or humans?....who profess to know the truth of the Universe and regard with fear and disdain their fellow human beings ( that are different than the "chosen ones" in sex and/or sexual characteristics) with God as the "hammer".
How many of us have hated ourselves by believing that we were/are one of the group of people regarded as "abominations of God"??
Dana
Sophie338
11-08-04, 01:45 PM
Hi Dana
How many of us have hated ourselves by believing that we were/are one of the group of people regarded as "abominations of God"??
Dana
Well Said !! :ARMS1:
Hugs
Sophie
I chose to be right when I stand before God.
Exactly how is it you know what is "right"? Your God and my God may not exactly have the same intentions. It gets into legislating moral issues and also a dangerous combination of religion and state. There's a reason for the separation that was built into the constitution.
We may not to agree and that is fine but people should reverse their logic on some issues and spend 90% of their time listening to the other side instead of the way most people approach disagreements on contentious issues which is about 90% arguing their side and 10% listening.
It's fine to disagree with same gender marriage, but can you tell us why? Using the God card tends to veer into the irrational aspect as there truly is no way for you know what exactly your God may have had in mind, nor is there a way for me to use a religious argument for it as the concept becomes a tad bit ethereal. It's like trying to argue that ghosts are a fact. Unfortunately, most arguments based on the God factor fail the basic theorem of being able to prove something is good or bad.
In regards to people thinking because you are intersex, you must be gay points to a societal problem. Where did that come from? I can show you lots of documents written by those who claim a direct connection to their God that repeat it. Why do these people believe that? Does their God produce faulty human beings? Are some people worth less in the eyes of their God? By buying into the concept that intersex=gay=not right=bad, we lower ourselves to that belief that there are faulty human beings simply because of the body they were born in.
I am a firm supporter of same gender marriage and those reasons having nothing to do with my own religious beliefs. They come from my own personal beliefs that people should have equal rights under the law, and that no one is less of a person because of who they are or who they love.
Betsy
Animal_Headbuts
11-23-04, 10:26 PM
Hello everyone. Why is it that people feel that just because your intersexed you are gay? I can understand if your predominately "woman" and desire another women that you would be gay. There are few that are classified as "true" hermorphidites that have both sexes and could be straight either way they go. That sometimes gets my goat. Just because I may have both sexes.....completely...I am gay,...I dont think so. If I live as a man and only date females,..what??? And I am opposed to same sex marriage and voted against it. I chose to be right when I stand before God.
Hello Devante, You can believe in whatever you choose but to answer your question concerning why it is that people assume you are gay is the same reason people think Asexual people are gay. It is a very simple answer ignorance and it is not so bliss in many situations. I know Asexuality is not the same as IS. I can tell you that with the person who is not perusing the what I call "bumping uglies" is assumed to be gay and with great judgment. Isn't this sort of ignorant if someone does not date they are considered homosexual?
Another answer to your question is that if you have the physical appearance of a female and date females this would be a natural assumption. I mean don't you ever identify anything by appearance? Just thoughts.
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