Just Stumbled In...

[Peter]

Hi Rycharde,

Welcome to Bodies Like Ours. Thanks for sharing your story. You can look on the bright side of things. If you are living as a gay man, and have female on your birth certificate and have mothered three children, you can probably legally marry a man. I believe that all people should have the right to marry regardless of their sexual orientation. I agree with you that social boxes are often more harmful than helpful.

If you are looking for a possible intersex condition, I would read about different intersex conditions on the Internet. For instance, as you respond to Testosterone, you probably do not have certain intersex conditions. There are other intersex conditions where fertility is common.

You mentioned that you just want to be seen as yourself. I have pretty much given up on other people recognizing me for who I am, but I have hope that I can see myself as who I am.

Peter

[Dianne]

Originally Posted by Peter

I have pretty much given up on other people recognizing me for who I am, but I have hope that I can see myself as who I am.

Peter

Such wisdom Peter! It is sad that most people have so little understanding of sex/gender and the natural variations of both. It grows very discouraging (after so many decades) of having a potential romantic interest disappear after "the talk" or having to keep secrets. Sometimes I think the only ones who truly understand and accept are other I.S. people.

[Peter]

Hi Dianne,

Perhaps you are correct that only intersex people can understand other intersex people. I have thought about this issue, and believe that there is a commonality among people whose bodies display sex differences and ambiguities. To be honest, sometimes I believe that transsexual people (who may also be intersex) have a much easier time understanding my situation than some intersex people. For instance, if a person has had top surgery, but not bottom surgery, they can be very aware of the type of acceptance and rejection issues that I have faced in my own life. While we focus mostly on the physical aspects of being intersex, I believe that the psychological aspects of being intersex can be somewhat overlooked. It is in the psychological area that I feel most misunderstood. For instance, the author of the book “Middlesex”, Mr. Eugenides, says that he uses method acting in his writing. Is this method acting the same as what Judith Butler refers to as “high het” drag? I have many questions, but few answers.

Peter

[Rycharde]

Originally Posted by Peter

Hi Rycharde,

W You can look on the bright side of things. If you are living as a gay man, and have female on your birth certificate and have mothered three children, you can probably legally marry a man.

Peter

Lucky me I'm Canadian.

I don't want either M or F on my birth certificate. I don't want anything there at all!

I don't think for any reason other than medical purposes in todays society should anyone need to outwardly display their designated sex or gender in any form that needs to be shown to people who are not bound by legal confidence.

Also I believe that for those people (medical professionals, financial institutions and places of education and employment) that they should be provided the medical biological sex to treat their medical conditions should any arise and their gender separately so they will know to address that person with the correct or at least polite pronouns.
Starting with that, when people are expected to consider these options and not choose a box that says male or female, maybe they will think and consider what they really are and realize how normal it is to vary in sex and gender.

In Australia voters are marked by their chromosomes. I think if anything M or F could be replaced by that!

Thanks for the idea. I think I should start on a project. A card, like government ID that can be given first before giving legal ID to display a person's true self. Maybe some places will pick it up as personal ID card like we have BYID for sale of alcohol here in Ontario to those who do not have a passport or drivers.

[Peter]

Hi Rycharde,

You are lucky to be Canadian. I agree that it would be better not to have M or F on birth certificates. You mention an interesting fact about Australia. However, using chromosomes on ID cards etc. might also cause many problems. For instance, I believe that most CAIS women would definitely not want to be labeled as XY. I have learned that chromosomes are not really an improvement over the F and M labels. They are just another set of boxes. I like your idea of a true self ID card, where the true self would be determined by the holder of the card. We could get really creative and artistic in creating our individual cards. I am already thinking of my card.....

Peter

[Rycharde]

Well what can we do to get that started? I know that the cost would be pretty easy to cover if you start off the same way student cards start out. They'd make profit selling for 5$ each.
We don't have to hire a graphics designer. I mean really just come up with some colors and ideas. Put all the pictures on a website and start off with people sending individual email requests for them.

Of course they would hold no water as legal ID. But that's not the point! The point is having something to present with/before giving other ID and having it catch the attention of authorities so that they would see how popular it is and sign into the distribution and control.

I think I'll check out the cost of making them, if anyone wants to send me a design for it then by all means.

I think an annual card would be the best idea. A new card every year, like a student card. With a picture and a big 2007 on it, new color every year or new theme. Have the option of profits going to a charity, and have the charity on the card like having the background as a huge ribbon of the color of your charity or their logo, or have a regular theme picked out that year.
On the card it would have your chosen name (if you go by a name other than your legal name) and maybe no gender marker. If someone likes they can put Ms. Diana Black or just Joe Smith. If the chosen name is different than the real name put a * next to that so that financial institutions aren't fraud by a "fake" name and know to research the name on the file.
The file would display the "facts" according to the government, only to be brought up by those who have "access" and that would be done only by professionals with legal confidentiality obligations such as doctors and financial institutions. Of course, this when it starts to hold water.

Oh so many ideas but I have a two year old telling me she's hungry and it is lunch time!

Oh about the chromosomes thing, It's not perfect. but it IS a step in the right direction. At least their government is acknowledging the need for change even if they are not satisfying it correctly. It's progress. Let's fight for more.

[kate.pixiecat]

Originally Posted by Rycharde

Oh about the chromosomes thing, It's not perfect. but it IS a step in the right direction. At least their government is acknowledging the need for change even if they are not satisfying it correctly. It's progress. Let's fight for more.

I certainly don't want my chromosomes recorded on any ID card for all to see. For me it is a private matter and I don't want to have to explain it all the time. I don't see what's wrong with all the usual details, Name, address, eyecolour, and even sex, as long as people can 'update' their details. It's just proof of identity after all, having an ID card isn't about conveying a political message. If I want to do that I'll wear a t-shirt.

[Rycharde]

Originally Posted by kate.pixiecat

I certainly don't want my chromosomes recorded on any ID card for all to see. For me it is a private matter and I don't want to have to explain it all the time. I don't see what's wrong with all the usual details, Name, address, eyecolour, and even sex, as long as people can 'update' their details. It's just proof of identity after all, having an ID card isn't about conveying a political message. If I want to do that I'll wear a t-shirt.

Like I said it's an Improvement on just having M or F. It is a government acknowledging that there is more than just one gender or sex.

It's moving forward. They will see there is MORE room to improve and take more steps in the future. We may have won a dump of swamp and landfill in our battle but beyond that is fertile pasture!

Personally I think that what's in my pants stays in my pants till I'm ready to share it with someone.
I don't feel like sharing what's in my pants with the guy that sells me porn/smokes/beer etc.
Obviously when people see me they make their own judgments about what I am. Most people see me as male. A lot of people see me as being very feminine, which I am.

I get treated very well where I work with the drag queens I do makeup on. They treat me the way I want to be treated. They've seen my shirt off and seen me flat chested on the dance floor but they've also seen how great I look in a skirt and I do walk like a woman.
They've never seen my ID, I've confidently used both washrooms and if they ever saw my ID and saw that solid F there I would never show my face there again. I'd get put into "that" box. They would have conclusive proof of my assigned birth sex and I know I'd have to stop being there.

Most people forget which X goes where and what Y means after X. Just because the chromosomes say one thing could mean the sex says another could mean anything according to an uneducated person, so they would not label me female who looks like male if they saw any combo of chromosomes an I'd feel safe. I'd just say "told you I'm special, and no, you'll never know."

My solution is scraping the F off of my paper passport and birth certificates. Sure it looks suspicious but hey...worth it!

[kate.pixiecat]

Originally Posted by Rycharde

Like I said it's an Improvement on just having M or F. It is a government acknowledging that there is more than just one gender or sex.

Most people forget which X goes where and what Y means after X. Just because the chromosomes say one thing could mean the sex says another could mean anything according to an uneducated person

Maybe it's different in America but here in Britain people are much more keyed in to those sort of things. Frankly I'm quite happy with my passport but if it had to have 'xy' written on it then I'd have to start explaining things, or alternatively come up with some cocky put-off line, either of which would make me less than happy. How can you say this is an improvement? Maybe for someone who's 'out and proud' it would be, but it's no help to those of us who just want a quiet life and are fine with things the way they are. I don't see what's wrong with M, F, or Other (if you so wish), as long as you get to change it if your birth assignment doesn't match your social identity.