Just Stumbled In...

[Peter]

Hi Rycharde,

You are lucky to be Canadian. I agree that it would be better not to have M or F on birth certificates. You mention an interesting fact about Australia. However, using chromosomes on ID cards etc. might also cause many problems. For instance, I believe that most CAIS women would definitely not want to be labeled as XY. I have learned that chromosomes are not really an improvement over the F and M labels. They are just another set of boxes. I like your idea of a true self ID card, where the true self would be determined by the holder of the card. We could get really creative and artistic in creating our individual cards. I am already thinking of my card.....

Peter

[Rycharde]

Well what can we do to get that started? I know that the cost would be pretty easy to cover if you start off the same way student cards start out. They'd make profit selling for 5$ each.
We don't have to hire a graphics designer. I mean really just come up with some colors and ideas. Put all the pictures on a website and start off with people sending individual email requests for them.

Of course they would hold no water as legal ID. But that's not the point! The point is having something to present with/before giving other ID and having it catch the attention of authorities so that they would see how popular it is and sign into the distribution and control.

I think I'll check out the cost of making them, if anyone wants to send me a design for it then by all means.

I think an annual card would be the best idea. A new card every year, like a student card. With a picture and a big 2007 on it, new color every year or new theme. Have the option of profits going to a charity, and have the charity on the card like having the background as a huge ribbon of the color of your charity or their logo, or have a regular theme picked out that year.
On the card it would have your chosen name (if you go by a name other than your legal name) and maybe no gender marker. If someone likes they can put Ms. Diana Black or just Joe Smith. If the chosen name is different than the real name put a * next to that so that financial institutions aren't fraud by a "fake" name and know to research the name on the file.
The file would display the "facts" according to the government, only to be brought up by those who have "access" and that would be done only by professionals with legal confidentiality obligations such as doctors and financial institutions. Of course, this when it starts to hold water.

Oh so many ideas but I have a two year old telling me she's hungry and it is lunch time!

Oh about the chromosomes thing, It's not perfect. but it IS a step in the right direction. At least their government is acknowledging the need for change even if they are not satisfying it correctly. It's progress. Let's fight for more.

[kate.pixiecat]

Originally Posted by Rycharde

Oh about the chromosomes thing, It's not perfect. but it IS a step in the right direction. At least their government is acknowledging the need for change even if they are not satisfying it correctly. It's progress. Let's fight for more.

I certainly don't want my chromosomes recorded on any ID card for all to see. For me it is a private matter and I don't want to have to explain it all the time. I don't see what's wrong with all the usual details, Name, address, eyecolour, and even sex, as long as people can 'update' their details. It's just proof of identity after all, having an ID card isn't about conveying a political message. If I want to do that I'll wear a t-shirt.

[Rycharde]

Originally Posted by kate.pixiecat

I certainly don't want my chromosomes recorded on any ID card for all to see. For me it is a private matter and I don't want to have to explain it all the time. I don't see what's wrong with all the usual details, Name, address, eyecolour, and even sex, as long as people can 'update' their details. It's just proof of identity after all, having an ID card isn't about conveying a political message. If I want to do that I'll wear a t-shirt.

Like I said it's an Improvement on just having M or F. It is a government acknowledging that there is more than just one gender or sex.

It's moving forward. They will see there is MORE room to improve and take more steps in the future. We may have won a dump of swamp and landfill in our battle but beyond that is fertile pasture!

Personally I think that what's in my pants stays in my pants till I'm ready to share it with someone.
I don't feel like sharing what's in my pants with the guy that sells me porn/smokes/beer etc.
Obviously when people see me they make their own judgments about what I am. Most people see me as male. A lot of people see me as being very feminine, which I am.

I get treated very well where I work with the drag queens I do makeup on. They treat me the way I want to be treated. They've seen my shirt off and seen me flat chested on the dance floor but they've also seen how great I look in a skirt and I do walk like a woman.
They've never seen my ID, I've confidently used both washrooms and if they ever saw my ID and saw that solid F there I would never show my face there again. I'd get put into "that" box. They would have conclusive proof of my assigned birth sex and I know I'd have to stop being there.

Most people forget which X goes where and what Y means after X. Just because the chromosomes say one thing could mean the sex says another could mean anything according to an uneducated person, so they would not label me female who looks like male if they saw any combo of chromosomes an I'd feel safe. I'd just say "told you I'm special, and no, you'll never know."

My solution is scraping the F off of my paper passport and birth certificates. Sure it looks suspicious but hey...worth it!

[kate.pixiecat]

Originally Posted by Rycharde

Like I said it's an Improvement on just having M or F. It is a government acknowledging that there is more than just one gender or sex.

Most people forget which X goes where and what Y means after X. Just because the chromosomes say one thing could mean the sex says another could mean anything according to an uneducated person

Maybe it's different in America but here in Britain people are much more keyed in to those sort of things. Frankly I'm quite happy with my passport but if it had to have 'xy' written on it then I'd have to start explaining things, or alternatively come up with some cocky put-off line, either of which would make me less than happy. How can you say this is an improvement? Maybe for someone who's 'out and proud' it would be, but it's no help to those of us who just want a quiet life and are fine with things the way they are. I don't see what's wrong with M, F, or Other (if you so wish), as long as you get to change it if your birth assignment doesn't match your social identity.

[miriam]

Why do you want me to share that I have XY chromosomes with e.g. an immigration officer if you don't want to share what's in your pants with the guy that sells you porn/smokes/beer etc?

I'm not female because of the F in my passport or birth certificate. It's the other way around: that F is in my passport because I'm female.

I don't have a problem with people who look at me and put me in the F box. But I most certainly have a problem with people who put me in the M box because of my chromosomes.

You think that replacing F and M with XX, XY, XXY, XO etc. would make clear to people that there is more just one gender or sex. But you make the same mistake as the people who you are focusing on. Your karyotype doesn't define your sex or gender. Someone with XY chromosomes can be a man, a mtf transsexual or a woman with an intersex condition.

There is only one solution to the problem of having M and F boxes in a passport: get rid of them. Or let people change it to what they think that is appropriate. Replacing M and F with other codes doesn't change anything.

Groeten, Miriam

[Rycharde]

Originally Posted by miriam

You think that replacing F and M with XX, XY, XXY, XO etc. would make clear to people that there is more just one gender or sex. But you make the same mistake as the people who you are focusing on. Your karyotype doesn't define your sex or gender. Someone with XY chromosomes can be a man, a mtf transsexual or a woman with an intersex condition.

Exactly! See this just works so well.
I can tell everyone in the world I have male chromosomes (don't know about that yet) but if I have a vagina they still see girl.

You have to think about what society thinks and not what you think because you happen to be educated. Society is not. They think about two things, and those are genitals.
My partner knows I am more male than anything, had a crush on me as a male, knows I have a small penis and everything. I smell male. I look male, I sound male. But he thinks I'm female. If I had male chromosomes which again we don't know yet then what would that change? Nothing! He's had contact with female parts on my person and that is all he thinks about when judging if I am male or female and let me say I'm with an in between deciding on whether to transition or not mtf.

So my point is that your average person sees M or F and decides everything about you based on that one sexual organ. It's a black and white thats what it is, nothing more nothing less you have a vagina you're female you have a penis you're male.

Meanwhile look at what you have mentioned. A female with male chromosomes. Look I see you and I see a chick. No doubt in my mind you look like a very lovely lady.
By knowing you have male chromosomes that tells me nothing about what is in your pants and I can't tell if you are male or female by your chromosomes alone so I go with what my eyes see. A nice lady.

If I saw an M on your ID I'd think ok, MTF or intersex.
Most likely mtf because people are ignorant these days and know nothing about intersex conditions. Then that would lead my more rude mind to assume you're a dude.
Seeing a male chromosomes on you won't make me think dude. It will make me think hey I'm looking at a lady, she must have her x's and y's in a bunch but thats definitely a lady I'm looking at right now.

So there is my simple explanation, from a simple, greatly uneducated pov. And I must remind you that just because you are educated and know what is what, absolutely no one else who has not had to deal with having an intersex condition or has a medical background knows very much about your chromosomes, truthfully, we're all pretty dumb.

The most likely situation if someone saw your chromosomes on your ID as male is to think hmm I thought that meant male, I must be wrong, because I'm looking at a lady.
If you had an M there like I being more male would have an F there people would get confused because they know what M and F mean for sure.