When do you tell?

[Peter]

I ask that people try to be respectful of one another on this forum. I noticed that Apple implied a willingness to discuss gender issues outside of the gender binary, but no one picked up on that. I know that Dana is also very attuned to intersex issues. I am often faced with my own painful experience of shame, secrecy, and denial around my own body. I think that self-discovery is often similar to unpeeling the layers of an onion. As Kate mentioned, continuing intimacy will be a project of self-discovery involving both Jon and his girlfriend. I believe that the success of Bodies Like Ours depends on a rather delicate balancing of various personal perspectives. The best way to keep the conversation going is by making a positive contribution to it.

Peter

[Dana Gold]

After careful consideration and re-reading some of Apple's posts, I can see where Apple is coming from. However, I will still take my crap and go. Peter mentions the self-discovery part; well gender identity and where one fits in the binary is a dynamic part of that process...perhaps I've misunderstood, but I do know that in the past years there has been a lot of trans-bashing here and rancor toward discussion of "gender things" ...and I do acknowledge that sometimes trans issues have gotten into an uncomfortable mix with intersex issues......however, since I'm, well, a trans-person (with a definite DSD) perhaps it's time to leave and move on to somewhere else....outside the closed fixture of cyber-space and into the 3-D real world....and, no, I am not seeking sympathy, empathy or any other "understanding" .... it is time for me to go, just as others have left ...we all evolve and I have nothing more to offer here except emotion-ridden rants, which only I can understand and has become of little value to others. I leave without ill-feelings toward anyone here and wish the best "whatever" to all here.

DG

[Peter]

I think that you have personalized this situation way too much. I am not sure that you really understand what Apple is referring to, even if Apple could perhaps have phrased it a little better. I can appreciate what Apple is saying. There are levels and meta-levels of the situation. I believe that your situation is very different than the situation of Jon's girlfriend. I choose my words carefully, because I believe that Jon is a sensitive person, who cares about his girlfriend, and I wish him all the best. You can send me a PM, or contact me, if you wish to discuss this further.

Peter

[apple]

I really should have been a bit more diplomatic. I let it all build up too long before speaking. I certainly do not want you to go Dana. You have a lot to offer, and you have long contributed here very effectively.

Dana please try to go the next step with all of this. I surely know that you can. Our past should inform us and not limit us.


Peter

Sorry I caused trouble.

[Dana Gold]

Peter was right about me; I took it all too personally. And, as for Apple, I now understand what the real matter is (after talking with Peter) something that my naive and gullible self had, in some instances, failed to recognize until pointed out and clarified to me with background information....and that is the sham posts and the people who post them who try to mind fuck the rest of the membership of BLO....sadly, and difficult for me to understand why, but a lot of these are trans who insist and/or demand (in the face of all reason and logic) on being some form of intersex and/or are playing weird head games. These fuckers give other honest and serious trans-people (like me) a bad name and reputation to the general public and, of course, here at BLO...it is outright sickening....and then the resultant trans-bashing from people who have, in all likelihood have experienced way too much of that mind-fuck crap.....I have had a belly-full of all cyber shenanigans; the freaks who either play mind games or arrogantly relate some fantasy.(or worse, are threatening)...... the self-righteous religious idiots..... and then there are the sickos who probably drool over the concept of "another" sex and then confusing and disrupting the BLO threads and delighting in the confusion and infighting thereafter...it would not shock me to find out some of them masturbate while they "do their stuff"....wacko jackals all of them.

http://radio.weblogs.com/0142035/ima.../08/hacker.gif

Anyway, good-bye and take care.

[Peter]

Through an exchange of private messages, I have gotten to know Jon better, and get a better idea of the situation that he is in. Far from running away from the relationship, or otherwise acting badly, Jon has written of his deep love and concern for his partner. I respect Jon for contacting me privately about his concerns, and I wish Jon and Chris all the best.

Peter

[apple]

For the record, if it stands anyway, and is not later sanitized. It is a new world order after all, and a not so really brave one after all it seems.

I have been silently reading here for a long time without posting, and I finally spoke out of concern, because this place seemed to have really changed. Over several months, I saw new people posting, and I saw them being ignored. I also thought I saw, an increasing new shift of focus toward gender identity issues as the predominant topic.

It also really looked to me, like all the old timers had just abandoned the place, and certainly, not in every case, some of the new posters looked to be really "creative" to me. It honestly appeared to me, that some of the status seeking, maladjusted, gender obsessed "forum warriors" crowd, who have for over a decade been having a gender fantasy tea party all over the internet, being apparently unable to settle their gender issues, had begun arriving here and trying to slowly but surely set up shop. I wasn't sure of this, but to me it looked like they were "testing the waters" and slowly becoming ever less subtle about it, because they were talking among themselves as no one here except Dana, who is an old timer, had said anything to them. If anyone else had done so I missed it, and I apologize for not noticing.

It was never about the whole silly "tans v intersex" issue for me. I have long believed that real gender dysphoria is probably rooted in biology, and I don't as "a matter of principle", or some such rubbish, presume all those who play with gender are sick or something, though many are.

It was for me just as I said earlier, ever so stupidly now as I look back, simply this. "1. It is not about gender identity. 2. It is not about gender roles within the binary. 3. It is not about unconscious presumptions of "validity" within some sort of hierarchy of status. I take issue with anybody, intersex or not, who insists upon making this place about such things, because it poisons the well, and it obscures issues of true relevance."

I wish I had not posted here at all now. I have not helped one tiny little bit, and in fact far from it. I don't need anything from anybody here. My issues of body and soul, both alike are settled, and I have a profound lack of talent for helping others, along with an amazing natural ability for messing things up, big time, in such a venue as this. I meant well. I am neither "anti-transsexual or "anti-transgender". Yes I know they are not the same. I feel the entire area, lacking a better word, of intersex and trans politics and support etc., is an immensely complicated and touchy beast of a thing, and I really should remember to stay away.


Dana I don't understand why you feel you must leave. I am really and truly sorry. In no way did I ever wish to hurt you or make you feel you should leave.


Once again I am sorry to have caused trouble. I wish all of you well.


One last thing.

Stop the horrific ethnic cleansing of Iraq and Palestine before it becomes world wide genocide. You are, far more likely than not, also on their list.