Verdomme, zijn die kut transsen nu helemaal gek geworden!

Yes, that is Dutch and you don’t want to know what it means in English! I’m getting sick and tired of trans people who try to pull us in their own world. I really have no problem with trans people as long as they don’t try to use intersex to dress up their conferences, symposia etc.

It seems to become quite common to add an intersex track to trans conferences. But by doing that trans people only amplify the confusion. Instead of making their audience aware of the intersex issues they tend to blur the differences between intersex issues and trans issues. After attending these kind of conferences chances are that people who have not attended the intersex track (and even those who did) might think that trans and intersex have a lot in common.

Betsy, this is happening in your back yard. In my opinion it is not acceptable that intersex becomes an synonym for gender. As a matter of fact, I consider the ongoing attempts of trans people to involve us in their gender problems as on of the major intersex issues of this moment. I hope you agree with me on this and that you can contact these people to tell them what the real intersex intersex issues are.

Groeten, Miriam.


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Call for Papers Trans Politics Conference
The Center for Lesbian and Gay Studies (CLAGS) invites proposals for workshops, panels, papers, poster presentations, films and performances for a conference on "Trans Politics, Social Change, and Justice" to be held May 6-7, 2005 in New York City. This conference will provide a venue to strengthen activist and research networks, incite dialogues, share research, and create resources central to creating social change for trans people. Proposals are due December 15, 2004.

During two days, conference participants will take part in plenary sessions, breakout groups, and roundtables about trans activism and public policy research on local, state-wide, national, and international levels. Activists and researchers will have the opportunity to further develop their ongoing work and to create new dialogues with trans and non-trans allies.

We encourage the participation of trans people in the broadest possible sense of the word "trans". The conference's educational goal is go beyond simple lessons about tolerance and gender diversity and engage participants in an advanced discussion of the experiences and political interests of different trans constituencies, including, but not limited to trans, butch lesbians, drag queens, bi-gendered, two-spirited, drag kings, femme queens, A.G.s, genderqueer, non-gendered, andro, crossdressers, and gender-bender peoples. We welcome presentations and workshops focused on intersex issues. While intersex issues are distinct from transgender issues, the conference focuses on multiple aspects and effects of binary gender frameworks, and alliance between intersex and transgender activists strengthens all of our work

The conference's practical goal is to create new interactions and foster ongoing collaborations among grassroots activists, community organizers, researchers, attorneys, LGBT community members, and members of allied communities and organizations. We encourage workshops and roundtables that will promote collaborative work and active discussions.

A central concern of this conference will be to create a balanced discussion of multiple areas of trans activism, organizing, legislative, and policy work. We strongly encourage proposals that will expand the horizon of what "trans politics" means. We welcome proposals addressing both well-publicized areas of trans activism and less well-publicized but equally urgent areas of concern, including, but not limited to:

--public policy
--access to employment, health care and social services
--non-discrimination legislation
--strategies for litigation
--trans politics as a new social movement
--immigration
--organizing against racial injustice
--issues of disability and able-ism in trans and queer organizing
--youth issues
--elder issues
--the impacts of the "War on Terror"

Proposal submission instructions
Proposals due: December 15th, 2004

Format for workshop/panel submissions.

1. the names and contact information of all the proposed presenters. Optional: including information about the race/ethnicity, sexual orientation, gender/gender identity, age, dis/ability status, and other relevant information for each proposed presenter will help the organizers ensure the conference program represents diverse identities and social locations.
2. workshop/panel title
3. a workshop/panel description up to 150 words
4. a paragraph, up to 150 words, describing how this panel/workshop furthers social change

Format for individual paper submissions:
1. the name and contact information of the presenter. Optional: including information about the race/ethnicity, sexual orientation, gender/gender identity, age, dis/ability status, and other relevant information for each proposed presenter will help the organizers ensure the conference program represents diverse identities and social locations.
2. presentation title
3. a paragraph, up to 150 words, describing the presentation and explaining how the presentation will assist the audience in understanding and undertaking trans politics.

Format for film/performances
1. the name and contact information of the organizer(s)/artist(s). Optional: including information about the race/ethnicity, sexual orientation, gender/gender identity, age, dis/ability status, and other relevant information for each proposed presenter will help the organizers ensure the conference program represents diverse identities and social locations.
2. a paragraph, up to 150 words describing the film/performance

Format for poster presentations:
1. name and contact information of poster presenter. Optional: including information about the race/ethnicity, sexual orientation, gender/gender identity, age, dis/ability status, and other relevant information for each proposed presenter will help the organizers ensure the conference program represents diverse identities and social locations.
2. title of poster
3. abstract of poster

Mail proposals to:
Trans Politics Conference
CLAGS, Room 7.115
Graduate Center, City University of New York
365 Fifth Avenue
New York, NY 10016
Or email proposals to clags@gc.cuny.edu - put "trans politics conference" in the subject line.

Conference Co-sponsors:
If you are associated with an organization that might be interested in co-sponsoring this conference, please email clags@gc.cuny.edu or call 212-817-1955.

Conference organizing committee:

Kylar Broadus
Earline Budd
Mauro Cabral
Diana Courvant
Paisley Currah
Chris Daley
Gael Guevara
Kris Hayashi
Richard M. Juang
JoAnne Keatley
Mara Keisling
Shannon Minter
Lisa Mottet
Marisa Richmond
Dean Spade
Jillian Todd Weiss
Willy Wilkinson

For more information on the conference and updates, visit www.clags.org. CLAGS strives to make all of its events accessible to our members. ASL interpretation can be provided for any CLAGS event if requested 10 or more working days prior to the event. Additionally, our events are scent-free, and we ask that attendees refrain from wearing perfume, cologne, hair spray, and other scented products so that everyone can participate comfortably. If you have other accessibility needs, please contact the CLAGS office, with a relay operator when necessary, at (212) 817-1955 or email us at clags@gc.cuny.edu.

__________________
The Truth, The Whole Truth, and Nothing But The Truth.

Miriam,

Thanks for posting this. I actually had received a copy of it not long ago and set it aside for further action on and then as happens often on my desk, it got buried and became "invisible' and thus forgotten.

I just got off the phone with one of the organizers (I know several very well) and learned that not all of the organizers thought inclusion of intersex was proper but there were accusations that those who felt it didn't belong were being exclusionary.

Knowing that it would be virtually impossible to change the planning for this year, and rather than just bitching and not doing anything about it, I figured I would actually submit a proposal to make the point. As you mention, it is right in my back yard (and an even nearer neighbor soon I hope)

"Why Intersex Doesn't Belong in Trans Conferences" or something along that line.

Betsy

__________________
Until you've lost your reputation, you never realize what a burden it was or what freedom really is. --Margaret Mitchell

About a week ago, I attended a benefit for "United Genders of the Universe!" in San Francisco which supports community education and events. As the email notice of the event said -- "for all you: freaks, punks, queers, trannies, genderqueers, men, women, genderfuckers, multiples, femmes, intersexies, rockstars, shyboys, skaterz, strippers, activists, workers, artists, felons, and everyone else." I figured that I fit in. The event was held at the Femina Potens performance space on Van Ness.

The evening was a mixture of acoustic guitar performances and spoken word performances. Performers included Julia Serano, Charlie Anders, Jo Boyer, Transition, Eli Wise and others. I loved it when the MC extended a warm welcome to all the "herms" in the audiance. It was one of those small venues where you feel like you are sitting around your living room.

When I hear statements about how "intersex is not about gender", those statements don't do anything for me. I would respond by saying that for some intersex people gender issues may have little to do with who you are. For other intersex people gender issues may have alot to do with who you are. There are so many conditions included under the intersex label. For some CAH and CAIS people, being intersex may have very little to do with gender. For some PAIS and 5ARD people, being intersex may be very involved with gender issues. So, when I hear "intersex is not about gender", I feel that it is an invalid generalization. When I hear statements like that, I don't really want to identify as intersex, but prefer to think of myself as a hermaphrodite.

Peter

Just from looking at the members of this board, you can see that many of the people with intersex conditions have gender problems too. We all have a common enemy, and it should be fought together. I think intersex has alot to do with gender, because if it wasn't for gender there wouldn't be any surgeries on infants.

That is a rather weird argumentation. There are 386 registerd members here but only 72 have posted 10 or more messages. Even if you assume that everybody who ever registered wit BLO has a severe gender problem, you can’t say that this would be reason enough to bring IS and TS under one umbrella. I’ve met a lot of TS and IS people in real life and I’ve learned from them that even when IS people have a gender issue, it is absolutely incomparable to the gender issues of TS people. Talking about IS and TS in one seminar is quite similar to talking about schizophrenia and brain tumors in one seminar: theoretically both can be considered to be related to the brain, yet it demands a completely different treatment.

In my opinion research on gender is important for IS people, trans people and even for ‘normal’ people (regardless the definition of “normal”). The problem is that with these kind of meetings, where intersex is reduced to a gender issue, people forget that there are other issues too. And the gender issues for IS people are definitely different from the gender issues for TS people. Last year September I visited the HBIGDA symposium in Ghent (Belgium). I’ve met a lot of wonderful and very nice TS-people, both FTM and MTF. Since that time I’ve learned a lot from them (and about them). Even if an IS person has to change to the other gender presentation (I’ve met only three in person) the transition is very different from the transition a TS person has to make through. If I only have one minute to explain this to medical professionals I often tell them that TS people seek the help of a doctor to change their body, while IS people seek help to get rid of the doctor who has changed their body. The gender issues that come from the first situation differ a lot from the gender issues in the latter situation.

If trans symposia become THE forum for IS issues you shouldn’t be surprised if intersexed children will be treated by gender teams in the (near) future. And I have seen and heard enough presentations by scholars who are interested in both TS and IS to know that this is more than just a possibility. That is why I want to emphasize that IS is not a gender problem. People with an intersex condition can develop a gender problem, but we have to ask ourselves if that is the result of the intersex condition or the result of the treatment. When people start to see IS primarily as a gender problem, it will become normal to raise children in their chromosomal sex and to fix the gender problem later in life. See http://www.bodieslikeours.org/forum...read.php?t=1012 for more information on the vision of Paul McHugh, one of the seventeen members of the President's Council on Bioethics.

If we really want to get a better treatment, we have to make clear what it means to have an intersex condition. And that means that we have to avoid symposiums were the audience is only interested in just one aspect of IS.


Groeten, Miriam

__________________
The Truth, The Whole Truth, and Nothing But The Truth.

No, it is not an invalid generalization. Reducing all the issues of being intersex to just the gender issues is an invalid generalization.

Peter, if you want to be a hermaphrodite nobody can help you. Medics know how to turn a guy into a gall and v.v.. But turning a Peter into a snail is far more difficult. The word hermaphrodite is a bit outdated. What you really want to say is that you have feelings that medical professionals would describe as gender dysforia. That can happen with IS. But it is not the common denominator of intersex conditions. And may be you don’t want to be diagnosed with gender dysphoria. In that case you better avoid contact with people who emphasize the gender issues of intersex condition because the only outcome of this will be that sooner or later medical professionals will tell you that they can treat your gender dysphoria in a gender team.

Groeten, Miriam.

__________________
The Truth, The Whole Truth, and Nothing But The Truth.

Miriam

If it were based on chromosomes,what sex would you raise an XXY child ?



I agree whole heartedly with your post,having gone through the turmoil of gender dysphoria,which I can only describe as having been to hell and back.I have had both (testosterone and oestrogen supplements) and now I have none.
Upon diagnoses,the testosterone was the doctor's choice and how I got through those dark years,I honestly do not know.The oestrogen was my choice,it had the effect of un-doing all the horrible pain (mental+physical) I suffered due to testosterone injections.

I have never seen myself as fully male,nor fully female,I would like to think I am a bit of both but,all of neither.In my darkest hours,I reached out for help and it came in the form of http://www.gendercentre.org.au/index1.htm

I shall be forever greatful for the assistance they gave and continue to give.At the centre,I have made many friends ,MTF,FTM and indeed would you believe XXy/Intersex.It has been through this realtime experience that I have been able to face the 'ghosts in my closet' and to realise,while I share some similarities with these groups,I do not want to change my sex,I am content with 'ME' just plain old xxy/intersex..........how boring!

Canice
XXy

Understanding is the answer

__________________
Understanding,is the answer

Hi Miriam,

There are times when I think that it is important to make a distinction between intersex experience and transsexual experience. If a transsexual person claims to be intersex, but they were not born intersex, a little friendly education can perhaps clarify things. (In the same way, you would probably try to educate a guy with five o'clock shadow who claims to be CAIS about AIS issues.) I don' think that it is possible for a transsexual person, who is not intersex, to speak or write with an intersex voice. I think that most gender related education projects are doing a pretty good job of public education. I recently reviewed the UCB Gender Equity Resource Center flyers on transgender and intersex. I think that they did a good job on the intersex flyer. Bodies Like Ours gets a prominent mention.

In reading the call for papers that you posted, the part that you highlighted did not set off any alarms in my mind. I have heard the argument about breaking the gender binary before and that is pretty standard gender stuff. I generally like your distinction that transsexual people want to work with doctors to change their gender, and intersex people want to get away from doctors. To me, it is important that genital surgeries and other gender related surgeries be performed with the full informed consent of the person undergoing the surgery. I think that is something that both intersex and transsexual people can agree on.

When I was young, I was often struck by the gender stereotypes of the society around me. On several occasions, parents in the neighborhood who apparently knew that I was intersex, confronted me on the street with a very hostile demand that I tell them whether I was a boy or a girl. I always found these confrontations with hostile parents deeply upsetting, and would think for weeks afterwards that it was unfair that they demand that I fit into their world. I was not allowed to join the Cub Scouts. My mother took me aside, and said that perhaps when I was older, I might virilize at puberty, and then perhaps the Boy Scouts would let me join them. I though about this conversation for years afterwards. Perhaps because of these experiences, I often feel that I have some type of heart connection with transsexual people that I meet. Everyone's experience of being intersex is different. I am not saying that gender issues are a common denominator of all intersex people. I am saying that in my own experience, gender issues were important.

I appreciate that you took the time to actually count how many people have posted 10 or more messages on this forum. Sometimes, I also wonder where intersex people are. The other day, when presenting a workshop at UCB, I thought to myself, that if every intersex student on campus showed up, there would be between 15 and 20 intersex people in the audience based upon the 1 in 2000 figure for infant gential surgeries. The total audience was not that large. You once mentioned that your AIS support group has a fairly large membership, so there are people out there. Numbers always interest me.

Peter

Hello!
What smart thinking here. I want to say something.

I agree, with Miriam's thinking mainly. And certainly with



- I have had hard time accepting my body which was modified by doctors and feeling that if I like my body now, I would give in to the idea that there was something wrong with me. I feel quite close to the TS people I know and can understand the way they feel about their bodies, there are similarities. I also agree that there is much more in IS than the gender issue. There is the other end which I think is quite annoying; the tendency to consider IS only as a medical issue and not as a condition that makes people targets of other people's confusion (because of rigid norms of gender related behaviour, I think...) and also very vulnerable to confusion of gender identity.
It is important to keep these issues separate but I don't think it makes sense to keep them separate when it is about issues both groups face.

I don't have much experience and didn't do a survey on this but jut wanted to share my view.

Kaius