http://www.bodieslikeours.org/Seatt...s-Intersex.html

Sunday, December 05, 2004, 12:00 A.M. Pacific

Plan would offer protection on basis of gender identity

By Keith Ervin
Seattle Times staff reporter

The Omnibus Civil Rights Ordinance under consideration by the Metropolitan King County Council would amend existing ordinances that prohibit discrimination in employment, housing, contracting and public accommodations.

The ordinance, proposed by County Executive Ron Sims, combines "housekeeping" measures with more substantial changes suggested five years ago by the Coalition for Enforceable Discrimination Laws.

Drafting the changes took so long because of the complexity of reconciling inconsistencies in existing county ordinances and bringing them into conformity with current federal statutes, said Bailey deIongh, manager of the county's Office of Civil Rights.

The more substantive provisions would:

• Extend civil-rights protection in the workplace from the current threshold of businesses with eight or more employees down to businesses with only one employee.

• Protect people on the basis of gender identity, specifically naming people who are intersexed (born with genitals that aren't exclusively male or female), transsexual (who live as the opposite sex and may use hormones and surgery to complete the transition), transvestite (cross-dresses) and transgendered (a broader term for people with gender-identity issues).

• Give employees and users of public accommodations the right to take complaints to court instead of the Office of Civil Rights.

Existing ordinances forbid discrimination on the basis of race, color, national origin, religion, gender, age, disability, marital status, ancestry or sexual orientation. Retaliation for making complaints is also banned.

A vote on the ordinance was scheduled for tomorrow but has been postponed while County Council members consider possible amendments.

The most significant change that's being considered would drop the idea of applying employee protection to businesses of all sizes. The prosecuting attorney's office has advised council members the ordinance could be subject to legal challenge if it reduces the minimum workplace size below the state standard of eight employees.

Seattle's 5-year-old ordinance, which protects workers in businesses of all sizes, has not been tested in court. Burien's gender-identity law also covers businesses with only one employee.

County Council members also may delete the list of specific gender-identity conditions from the definition of gender identity.

Keith Ervin: 206-464-2105 or kervin@seattletimes.com

Copyright

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Until you've lost your reputation, you never realize what a burden it was or what freedom really is. --Margaret Mitchell

This came out of nowhere (i.e. trans groups probably). I've been talking to people at the Health department of King County and we'll put together a better version of intersex civil rights stuff prepared.

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ipdxWIRE Intersex News: www.ipdx.org/news

I am wondering what other people think about intersex as a protected class. I know that this issue is being considered in Seattle and will probably soon be under discussion in San Francisco. Any thoughts? Thanks.

Peter

Peter, it all starts with a clear definition of the word 'intersex'. And then we have to pick a symbol to make it easier for people to recognize us. The yellow star and the pink triangle are already in use. Well, I agree, this is a bit overdone. A stamp in our ID cards would be enough I think. But only for those people who are officially recognized as being intersex, of course. It's a shame that my old doctor died before he could help the intersex community with this.

Class? Are you kidding! Intersex is something that happened to me, it is not WHAT I am.

Groeten, Miriam

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The Truth, The Whole Truth, and Nothing But The Truth.

Hi Miriam,

I do get tired of your suggestion that every attempt to establish civil rights for intersex people means that I am growing a mustache and soon will be doing a Nazi salute. As my mother is Jewish, I find the suggestion deeply troubling. But there is no essentialism in this (Hi Emi), and even if I was not Jewish, I would still find the suggestion troubling.
I am curious, are you against all legislation to protect civil rights based upon race and sex, or are you just against laws that might protect intersex people? Is it acceptable to protect the civil rights of transgendered people, but not the civil rights of intersex people? I would like to know more about your position on these issues.

Peter

The interesting (ignorant?) thing about this article and while I don't know enough about the proposed legislation to differentiate between what was reported and what is the truth was the mention of intersex and it's definition of those born with genitals that aren't clearly male or female. Frankly, I didn't know that my genitals determined my gender, and furthermore, if that is how they are defining it, they are excluding lots and lots of people with intersex who do not have genital ambiguity.

The second point of contention is anyone who wants to claim intersex as a protected class better be ready and able to prove it. Peter, I recall you having problems obtaining your medical records. Planning to claim intersex discrimination? Be ready to ready to pull your pants down for the judge. Your genitals and chromosome will quickly become part of the public record as all court cases are. If you have med records, such actions may not be necessary but the tradeoff your medical records are now accessible by anyone who wants to see them because they've been into a legal case as evidence.

Betsy

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Until you've lost your reputation, you never realize what a burden it was or what freedom really is. --Margaret Mitchell

Hi Betsy,

You are right about needing to clarify what intersex is. I trust that Emi is working with lawmakers in Seattle on getting the definition of intersex clarified.

I know a least one person who has been fired from their job for coming out as intersex in the workplace. It does happen. Also, in the future, I believe that more people might come out as intersex, if they did not fear negative public reaction. Laws protecting intersex people could help end discrimination. There are generally clear standards for this, and the strength of cases brought under anti-discrimination complaints from intersex people would face the same legal environment faced by other discrimination claims. I agree that one would have to prove that one is intersex. In Alice Dreger's book on hermaphrodites and the medical invention of sex, she sites several cases of brave intersex people who faced the court system in the nineteenth century. It was usually against their will, but they seemed willing to face the world with dignity.

I believe that one area where intersex people need clear protection is in the prison system. If I were in prison again, in the future, I would have no reservations about taking my pants down in front of a judge if necessary. It certainly would not be any more humiliating than the routine prison strip searches that I underwent in the past. Prison is an example of an environment that can be deeply traumatic for intersex people, and I think that there should be civil rights laws that protect the rights of intersex prisoners.

Peter

Hi Peter, several months ago I asked you if you are dyslectic. And now I have to ask it again. I didn’t say AND I didn’t suggest that you sympathize with the Nazi’s.

From the fact that your mother is Jewish I understand that you are Jewish too. In that case I would say: guard your tongue and stop speak loshon hora about me. Chafetz Chaim compared the power of speech with a factory. In that factory there were 248 machines who looked alike, but one machine was different from the others. Several people where guarding it and there were signs that a license was required to operate this machine. It turned out that this special machine was connected to all the other machines. If a malfunction were to occur, all the other machines would stop. Those 248 machines are the 248 positive mitzvoth. The special machine is our speech (that’s why we have to guard it carefully). If we use our speech properly, it is a potion of life, otherwise it is a potion of death.

BTW, Christian people can use the text in Matthew 22:37-40: “You shall love the Lord, your God, with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind. This is the greatest and the first commandment. The second is like it: You shall love your neighbor as yourself. The whole law and the prophets depend on these two commandments.” This text is quite similar to what Chafetz Chaim described.

As said before: I did NOT suggest that. Please be nice and explain to me why you came to the conclusion that I try to turn you into a Nazi.


Black people, white people, coloured people, trans people, intersex people, old people, young people, disabled people, Dutch people, German people. European people, catholic people, Jewish people, Islamic people. The only reason that I use two words is to say that all these people are different. Sometimes it is not so bad to belong to a group: it’s a pleasure to belong to the group “Dutch people”. And even the transition from the group “young people” to the group “old people” is not that bad. In many cases you have the possibility to declare yourself a member of a group. If I move to France it is quite easy to become a member of the group “French people”. But is impossible for me to become a member of the group “black people”. I will always belong to the group “white people”. Legislation is necessary if one group thinks that they are superior to another group. Are white people better than black people? No. So, if some white eikels (that’s Dutch) think that they are better, we have legislation to protect black people. But... that legislation does not say that white people are not better than black people. It also doesn’t say that black people are as good as white people. Good legislation will not discriminate between races and will only say that it is not allowed to discriminate between races. The message of the legislator is that color doesn’t matter.

A society with special legislation for black people is still working with two classes of people: those who are black and those who are not. In that case the legislator recognizes that black and white are NOT equal. In other words: good legislation will not differentiate if there is no reason to differentiate. I’m not an expert on US legislation but I think that the 9th amendment is dealing with the problem of what happens if you grant specific rights: “The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people.”. The fact that the constitution does not mention a certain right, does not mean that this right does not exist. And I think that this is not only true for the constitution. Even if legislation does not specifically name the group “intersex people”, it will be just as valid for intersex people as for other people to use this legislation to protect their rights.

In my opinion there are no specific intersex issues that can’t be protected with existing legislation.

Another reason why I am against special legislation for intersexed people is of course the definition of intersex. Peter, even if you lower your pants it isn’t sure that you can convince a judge, a jury, CourtTV, you name it, that you have an intersex condition. Even for medical professionals it is in some cases impossible to tell the difference between a person with an intersex condition and a post-op transsexual. In 46,XY Intersex Individuals: Phenotypic and Etiologic Classification, Knowledge of Condition, and Satisfaction With Knowledge in Adulthood (PEDIATRICS Vol. 110 No. 3 September 2002), written by Claude J. Migeon, MD; Amy B. Wisniewski, PhD; Terry R. Brown, PhD; John A. Rock, MD; Heino F. L. Meyer-Bahlburg, Dr. rer. nat.; John Money, Ph; and Gary D. Berkovitz, MD you can read:



If they can’t tell the difference, then who can?

I think I’ve answered your questions and I hope that you now understand why I am against special legislation for people with an intersex condition.

I assume that your next question is where I've learned about loshon hora and the Chafetz Chaim. Well... I don’t have to tell you every bit of my personal life, don't you think? I’m not Jewish and there is a lot that I don’t know/understand. But the doorpost of my parents house was decorated with a mezuzah. I don’t know if you’ve read the works of Rabbi Moshe ben Maimon (or Maimonides aka Rambam). His book Sefer Hamitzvot (book of commandments) was important to my father. I’m afraid that mitzvah N360 and mitzvah N361 of this enumeration have influenced my life more than I like. Well, the sefer hamitzvot is also a kind of legislation. And that is another reason why I am against legislation for intersex conditions. Although I’m not Jewish and even not religious at all, this is one of the things that I would like to ask a Rabbi: was my fathers explanation of the mitzvoth right or not? Well, maybe another time. This is getting way to personal.

Groeten, Miriam

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The Truth, The Whole Truth, and Nothing But The Truth.

Willing? Dignity? I've read about several of these cases and none of them had a happy end. I think that you have to come up wit better examples before I will discuss my intersexed body in court. Groeten, Miriam

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The Truth, The Whole Truth, and Nothing But The Truth.