I hope I am not breaking any rules by posting these thoughts of mine. In no way do I wish to offend anyone. I merely wish to put this out there for others consideration.


Gender and sex are devices as they are ascribed value, given moral significance, and through delineating classification become mechanisms of control. As such they limit human expression and freedom to be as we are born, or even also wish to be. We can and must question our own conditioning, the sex and gender paradigm 'as a whole', and undermine that control. Only then can we restore the integrity of our own humanness, by asserting our basic human right to be as we truly are 'individually'.

Of course to assert at all that there is a "way things ought to be", regarding sex and gender expression, undermines the potential for liberation from oppressive cultural assumptions. Identity politics of any kind rely upon the assertion of standards, and are counter revolutionary therefor. For such deny the innate individuality of human beings, as they require conformity to even a "new and improved" paradigm or standard. This is a pitfall that the Intersex community has also fallen into, and it breaks my heart to see it.

Natasha

I found myself thinking something related as I was writing my little presentation on intersexuality (which was revised a little this week and reposted, BTW). I was describing the preferred technique now for handling intersex kids by assigning them a gender at birth, and giving them a choice to change that later on. And I found myself wondering why only intersex kids should get that choice!

Glenn

Hi Glenn,

Thank you for your great response. I also want to thank the moderator of this forum for allowing this thread to remain. Having had doctors decide what sex I must be, I hate paternalism, and it has always amazed me how any of us resort to it, after all we have been through.

I guess what I am trying to say is that I am concerned that Intersex people are being seduced and harmed by identity politics. The same being heavy with conformism, and enforced through censorship and the ostracizing of individuals, whose thinking is deemed politically incorrect. One Intersex forum censored the same post I began this thread with, by deleting it immediately. The host there decided for everyone what ideas they can be exposed to, by deciding what they can read.

You asked a very good question Glenn. Myself being a complex nincompoop, I want to flesh it out a bit and restate it thusly.

Since the concept that sex is defined as male 'or' female is false, and what is ascribed as "gender" is merely behavior as it appears to relate to sexuality, with infinite potential variation among a race of beings who are all unique individuals, how can we be intolerant of any individual expression in regard to this, without emulating our oppressors?

Nice to meet you Glenn.

Natasha

...is obvious - we can't.

Yes, I've found this board to be quite wonderful; and I haven't known Betsy to censor ANYTHING. I think the only time she would is if someone was clearly predatory.

Does anyone remember what recent TV sitcom has a lot of scenes in a bathroom for all sexes? I recall reading that some company in the Northeast was inspired by it, and only put in a single large bathroom for everyone. I first thought this a little odd, but I wonder how much tension among the sexes would be alleviated by reducing the segregation factor.

Glenn

Censor...not me. LOL...I don't even have the auto censor "curse" words turned on. If we all had the same thoughts/interpretations/sensitivities, the world would be a very boring place.

Post away...and often too!

I do want to respond to this thead but am out of town and can only manage hit and runs on the board while I get some puter time. When I get some time to sit and think, I will.

Betsy

Betsy I deeply respect and applaud your commitment here. I am very impressed, and also grateful for the opportunity to finally be heard. I am just guessing, but that joyful smiling face of yours looks Native American. I am 1/4 Sioux myself, my father was from North Dakota, and 1/2 Sioux. I do love that big smile of yours, and I am very glad to meet you.

Hi Glenn,

That was Aly McBeale <sp?> I believe. Think about though. If "they allow" unisex bathrooms and other steps to demystify sex and gender dissolving the binary, then how will they ever maintain the cultural tension and keep us all under control? How would they maintain the birth rate keeping labor costs down also enabling them to maintain large armies so they can 'stay' in control, and sell us all of their products?

Think it over Glenn. What are trying to do, change the world and make it a safe and happy place or something?

On second thought, please let me help you ok?

Natasha

Hi Natasha! Glenn! Betsy!

May I be so bold as to ask if rigid conformity is required in denial of a binary system? Might not reality lie somewhere between a strict dichotomy of the sexes and a strict unity?

If human biological sex were truly a continuum I would not expect a requirement for procreation without technological intervention of a male and a female. And yet, it is so.

Some of my cells are xy; some are xo. I'm female but there are limits on my biology. Unless Berkovitz is a complete moron it takes two X chromosomes to develop functional ovaries. Thus two XX chromosomes is a limit on female fertility. I'm not up on testicular development but I suspect that similar minimum requirements exist.

I suggest that the problem lies not so much in those who suggest that "male" and "female" exist, as the clearly do, but in those who would define "male" and "female" in ways that measure genitals at birth and insist on conformity to their standard rather than allowing what God created to remain as it was born.

I'm of course not arguing that we don't exist. Nor am I saying that we must choose to live as "male" or "female" stereotypes. For there certainly is a diversity of karyotype, phenotype, gonadal function, adrenal function, gender, etc.

So, in my mind it's not a question of the one or the many. Male and female exist. The continuum exists but only as variations on a theme, with male and female as starting points. Although some intersex conditions may be inherited, the further that one's reproductive tract is from the norm the less likely one is to reproduce.

As for whether or not "they" are out to control "us" I'm not very worried about that. It should be clear that I've been out of control for quite a while now. :D

Respectfully,
Jane

Hi Jane,

Thank you for your wonderfully thought provoking response. I hope I understand your concern. If I do as I suppose, I share it.

I think my criticism of identity politics of any kind with its standards and implied requisite conformity, makes it clear that of course I am opposed to rigid adherence to any kind of dogma. I think even to affirm an opposite, reinforces what is opposed. Such dualism produces more controversy than solutions I believe. Pointing out inconsistencies can lead to improvement however.

You wrote: "Might not reality lie somewhere between a strict dichotomy of the sexes and a strict unity?"

Certainly yes, but I would go further and say that reality itself lies outside of dualistic conceptualism in any case. In my view the more sane and healthy ones views are, the less dualistic and dichotomizing they will tend to be. It goes without saying that to oppose binary dogmatism with conceptualizations of unity, which exclude binary elements that a continuum must contain, is just plain silly. :D

I can't help but wonder if perhaps the way to go is to undermine the entire sex and gender polemic, by more of us realizing that sex and gender are phenomenon 'ascribed' to individuals 'by' individuals, who as individuals vary individually, and there is no "way things ought to be" therefore, other than for people to be aware of that. Please note that I do not mean to assert that sex does not exist objectively as real, but certainly our projections of valuation upon bio/sex are artificial, and as we all know, too often harmful.

You also wrote: "If human biological sex were truly a continuum I would not expect a requirement for procreation without technological intervention of a male and a female. And yet, it is so."

I am not sure that I follow you, but it seems that your statement implies that the ability to procreate confers legitimacy as 'a sex', or perhaps justifies it's existence. Why is the ability to procreate a necessary requisite, and who says it is? Non reproducing intersex spring into being regardless. We exist, so in my view we 'are' indeed components within a greater whole. One greater than the conceptual sex binary allows for yes, but to my mind such belies the legitimacy of that same conceptual binary, if anything, since it denies objective reality.

Many of us cannot reproduce, yet we continue to come into being and we are. So for me it seems obvious that we are part of a continuum, and perhaps even for some purpose of necessity. For me that is enough, and speculations as to why and whether or not we are legitimate, I think are irrelevant realistically. Aren't such anyway merely projections of valuation within an obviously flawed as incomplete, subjective conceptual framework? I think so, and whether such as my own, or those based upon the assumption that breeding pairs capable of reproduction alone are enough for the survival of the race human, we are here, always have been, and despite the best efforts afforded by emerging medical technology, we shall continue to be.

You also wrote: "Some of my cells are xy; some are xo. I'm female but there are limits on my biology. "

I share the same diagnosis [MGD] and the same limitations. For purposes of expediency I both present and I am perceived as, a woman. I also have female genitals.

You wrote: "I suggest that the problem lies not so much in those who suggest that "male" and "female" exist, as they clearly do, but in those who would define "male" and "female" in ways that measure genitals at birth and insist on conformity to their standard rather than allowing what God created to remain as it was born."

The existence of God and God's will aside. I feel the problem lies with those who believe regarding our legitimacy, right to bodily integrity and existence as is, that such authority as is imputed to be God's, is both presumed to be known of and carried out by them who so presume. I agree with you that males and females exist, since it is pretty obvious to me as well. .... :D


You wrote: "As for whether or not "they" are out to control "us" I'm not very worried about that. It should be clear that I've been out of control for quite a while now. :D"

"Out of control", I like that. :D

When I spoke of "them" controlling "us", I was referring to those who "have the gold and make the rules", and by us I refer to all the rest of us, Intersexed or not. I feel that one of the advantages afforded me by my own intersexed birth, is that of necessity my adaptation has required me to both question and live outside of their conventions, which I beleive oppress and exploit everyone everywhere.

To put it simply it is impossible for we intersex, to live by the rules imposed, by the rulers of this world. Their rules do not take us into account obviously, since for the most part our very existence appears to violate them. Because this is so, to an ever increasing degree I step outside of their control of my perceptions, as my life circumstances force me to look beyond the minds eye view society tends to impart through socialization. Socialization within a society both structured and controlled by the rulers of this world, who seem to have a real problem with our existence.

Jane I really enjoyed responding to your post. Thank you.

Natasha

Hi Natasha,

I'm actually mostly Polish with the rest of my heritage being a smattering of Eastern Europe. My family is only 2nd and 3rd generation here in the US. I do smile alot now though. One of the things I always hear when I present a workshop is about the smile thing I have going on.

I wasn't always like that though. I used to scowl alot and people would mention that to me, just like they do now with the smile. It wasn't until I believe I found myself...as an intersexed person. I ignore the boxes, and do my own thing.

The funny thing is, while I refer to myself as a female, it is an odd blend of the dichotomy that society feels we all must fit into. My brain...male. My body...female with a formerly big clitoris that I rue the loss of everyday.

I'm not sure if you saw the ABC program I was interviewed on, but the bite they used of me had me talking about it a bit. Unfortunately, they also did a bad edit of the last part of the bite. Had they not cut where they did, you would have heard me relating how I felt I had the best of two worlds...a virtual gender garden of eden and willing to exploit the privilage inherent in both.

Ironically, when I sent a press release about the ABC show, I got ripped on another intersex listserv about referring to myself as female! I didn't respond, because I don't think I need to justify my own gender identity or word usage to describe it. I was reading that thread and kept wondering to myself why the writer felt so strongly that I needed to fit into some predetermined mold and identity.

I'm not sure society is ready for anything but male/female. In a twisted view of that binary, the surgeries they do on us is practically gendercide. For generations, they have attempted to fit us into the box using whatever means necessary, including the removal of our genitals. They try to erase the skewed gender we come into the world with into until they find something more acceptable.

How to change that, I don't know and am not entirely sure it would even be beneficial to try and change. I see it as a losing battle for many years to come.

In the meantime, I just go on my merry way doing my best to change the world some, starting with the surgery issues and awareness with little regard of what others and society thinks of me. I have my own box, picking and choosing from both of the prescribed ones...publicly declaring myself female, and believing I am female but sticking my fingers into the grease of testosterone once in awhile.

On the cah.org board, I recently posted a response to someone who can't see the difference between gender and gender identity. For me, I am female...but with a few caveats thrown in for good measure :D

Here's the link for the section on gender we have posted on the main site Bodies Like Ours Gender

I would love your feedback on it.

Betsy