Hi! This is my first time in this forum. I, like the individual by the name 'Melanie' before me, am not an intersexual. After reading Betsy's response to Melanie that she is welcome despite her unaffiliation with intersexuality, I decided to write this.

I'm a 20 year-old male that never knew that intersexuals even exist until yesterday. I became interested in them by building enough curiosity to look up the term 'hermaphrodite' in the Encyclopedia and find out that, lo and behold, they do exist. My first response was not 'How freakish.' To the contrary, I realize that in a rational society, they would not be considered 'freaks.' In fact, I would quite readily say that the practice of lopping off a female's clitoris because it's big enough to resemble a penis is NOT done out of 'good intentions.' There is no doubt in my mind that it is done out of sheer envy. Perhaps this is something that this community already knew ...

I spent all day yesterday glued to my computer, reading a very good deal on the biological and psychological issues of intersexuality. I know, for example, that the term 'hermaphrodite' is considered offensive, and that there is someone out there who wants to do away with the concept of gender while others do not share this 'postmodernist' perspective. It's all very fascinating.

Quickly, I have come to the conclusion that for a doctor or a parent to mutilate an intersexual infant or child so that they can grow up with a clear gender obviously transcends the individual right of the intersexual to have the final word on the esthetic integrity of their body. I take it that the likelihood that certain manifestations of intersexuality will lead to cancer is low enough for the intersexual to make their own decision on any surgical modifications upon their genitals. It is truly barbaric that such decisions are made without the child's consent, and it is clear to me why intersexuals are so miffed that this decision was made for them. One reason for this anger is that you have been deprived of a higher capacity for sexual pleasure and special sexual features. In a rational world, the intersexual would not have to worry about social humiliation at all. Rather, if anything, they would have to worry about too much POSITIVE social attention paid to them. And it is simply crackers to say that intersexuals are BOUND to face social persecution no matter what. Sure, this may be true in the world in which we currently live. But in a rational world, I can easily imagine how intersexuals would be one of the most, if not THE most, desirable of all sexual beings.

As for the controversy over whether the term 'hermaphrodite' should be used, I guess I'm simply too ignorant to understand what is wrong with the term. The term is used way too infrequently for it to have a negative stigma to it. And even if it were to have a negative stigma, changing the term to 'intersexual' is not going to take that stigma away. Also, I find the classifications 'ferm,' 'merm,' and 'herm' to be a highly convenient means of discourse. What is this talk about these terms being irrelevant? These terms are brilliant! They make life a hell of a lot easier.

I recommend to all intersexual 'activists,' as they may be, to not only emphasize that it is NOT BAD to be intersexual, but that it is also GOOD. In these times, I don't see why intersexuals can't win social acceptance just as other minorities, though this acceptance should not be forcibly adminstered by the government. There is only one area where the government needs to step in, and that is in enforcing the individual right of the intersexual to have the final say on the status of his intersexuality. Insofar as it is a legitimate health problem, the doctors and parents have a right to attempt to correct this problem. But insofar as it is a matter of cosmetic and sexual function, clitorectomies and other such 'solutions' need to be held at par with child abuse in the most extreme sense of the term. Indeed, the belief that 'normal is necessarily good' has to go. I have been diagnosed with a 'psychiatric condition' called 'Asperger's syndrome,' and if my mother had the power to take this 'psychiatric abnormality' away from me at birth, it would be a travesty. This 'abnormality,' in my case, is a gift of the mind, just as intersexuality is a gift of the body. Now, it is possible that 'Asperger's syndrome' can be problematic in some respects and in some cases, just as intersexuality can be problematic in some respects and in some cases. But, simultaneously, being normal (either mentally or physically) can also be problematic in some respects, in some cases. Though conditions may be 'abnormal,' they are not necessarily problematic and, indeed, may be advantageous. In the case of either 'Asperger's syndrome' or intersexuality, the conditions are almost always, to the greater extent, advantageous. That is exactly why they are targeted as 'abnormalities' in the first place: not for their problems, if any, but for their unspeakable advantages. I'm lucky that 'abormalities' of the mind are not so easily lopped off.



Perhaps this is not 'Bodies Like Ours' material ... perhaps I am out of line. But my chances of meeting a feminine intersexual on the streets is next to nothing, especially since most of them have been mutilated by their doctors and parents. So this is the bottom line: and my e-mail address is You also might like to know that I am a writer, and a handsome lad. I wish I had a scanner. If anyone out there can help me, thanks a lot, and keep up the good work.

Patrick

P.S. Perhaps someone should set up a dating service for intersexuals ... this does seem a little bit awkward.

***Edited by Betsy to remove request for sex. Bodies Like Ours is not a dating service.

I'm not comfortable with this...

You guys let me know. I waver because at least he is honest, but sigh because I don't want Bodies to be a "wanna fuck" site.

I've had one complaint thus far. If you have thoughts on it, please share them to help guide us.

Betsy

__________________
Until you've lost your reputation, you never realize what a burden it was or what freedom really is. --Margaret Mitchell

Betsy,

Is that all you consider my message? A "wanna fuck" message? What about the rest of it? I returned to my computer hoping to get an intelligent response to my ideas ...

Yeah, I "wanna fuck." Do you know anyone else who wants to "fuck" or any other forum in which they do not use the word "fuck" to describe sex?

Patrick

But you didn't even mention anything about relationships...it was simply having sex...

And yes, in my book, simply having sex -- particularly if driven by curiousity -- falls squarely into what we call 'wanna fucks'.

Trust me Patrick, it's not a unique phenomena.

Betsy

__________________
Until you've lost your reputation, you never realize what a burden it was or what freedom really is. --Margaret Mitchell

Osysio,
I do not think what you had said was wrong , what I see what is wrong is how your Curoisty is eating you up.
Az1
Muhoe

Betsy,

Thanks for your reply.

I need to explain something to you about myself. I am neither an epistemological nor a moral relativist. This is to say that I do not see the world as I want to see it to exclusion of how it is; I see the world as I want to see it to the INCLUSION of how it is. Obviously, you think that just because sex is my first priority in writing the letter, this priority exceeds that of truth. No priority, in my life, exceeds that of truth. This means that everything in my letter was an OBJECTIVE observation; not a SUBJECTIVE lie designed to win over you so that I can "fuck" you. Yeah, I "wanna fuck," but--however shocking it may be--I also "wanna think." How dare you disregard my ideas--my mind--just because I have the balls to admit that my main purpose in writing the letter is to have sex (no pun intended). I also want to change the world and share my ideas with others, for one man alone can not change the world without the help of others. So I will ask it again: What about the rest of my message?

Second of all, you make my simple and utterly innocent interest in having sex seem like something vulger. No, I have not expressed an interest in having a relationship, but that is because I believe in the separation between love and lust. This is not to say that society should OVERINDULGE in the commodity of sex, for sex, like all commodities, is subject to the law of supply and demand. As the supply increases, the demand decreases; as the supply decreases, the demand increases. Indeed, society should maintain a voluntary standard of decency where sex is kept rare and precious. But the institution of sex should be freely bartered just as any other commodity, between free and consenting individuals, without there being a necessity for love in the relationship. This does not mean that I disagree with the institution of love. To the contrary, love--and its economic corrolary that is marriage--would be far TRUER in a society that had the maturity to separate the institutions of sex and love. For example, if you can not trust that the one whom you love does not love you because they have sex with other people, then you believe that their love for you is actually their LUST for you and, thus, they do not truly love you. However, if the one whom you love has your permission to have sexual relations with others, then you believe that they TRULY love you. As you can see, those who do not distinguish between love and lust do not truly BELIEVE that the love is true, or that the lust is true. If the love is true, then it needn't be dependent upon lust, and if the lust is true, then it needn't be dependent upon love. Thus, in the ideal world, where there is separation between love and lust, the divorce rate would be next to nothing, given that so much of the "love" that ends up in marriage today is actually motivated largely by lust. Moreover, the reason that lust PER SE is considered vulger, hence your use of the derogatory term "fuck" to describe it, is that, in your philosophy, lust need be bound up with love and, therefore, be accompanied by heartbreak when the love does not appear to be true. However, this is an unnecessary consequence of lust. It is ideal, and possible, that people freely have enjoyable, safe, temperate, mutually consentual sex sans the element of love.

Betsy, I did not say that I am unwilling to have a loving relationship. But, however slim my chances of ever enjoying an intersexual for their body may be, the chances of my ALSO falling in love with them are so slim that it would be ludicrous for me to even pretend to invest energy in that endeavor. Most people in this world are not worthy of love, unfortunately. I do not engage in dating, nor would I, because the chances are so great that they wouldn't be for me. However, there are many more out there who WOULD appeal to me sexually, so I am more easily willing to go out on a limb to obtain this goal.

There is only one way that my overtures here should be deemed objectively inappropriate, and that is that most people in this forum are sexually defunct owing to tragic abuses at the hands of pathologically misguided individuals. If this is the case, and if there is no one out there who can help service my request, then, by all means, my sincerest apologies.

Patrick

Hi Patrick,

You write:

"Obviously, you think that just because sex is my first priority in writing the letter, this priority exceeds that of truth."

I think you have Betsy all wrong. I believe as well that you fail to understand that although we are sexual beings, many of us do not appreciate being valued as novelty *items* and exotic *specimens*.

All of our lives we have been esteemed as oddities, novelties, exotic weird things, "abnormal". Most especially so by the medical community.

You have looked up a few facts *about* us, but you do not understand us at all. This is obvious. I get the impression that in your fact finding, that you neglected to read our heartfelt words here. In other words you do not seem at all concerned with how we feel, what we have endured, or who are as people.

Simply put .

Patrick, you seem mainly concerned with our sexual value to you. Our potential to bring you sexual pleasure and satisfy your taste for the exotic.

I do not really appreciate being objectified, sexually or otherwise.

Your digging up a few facts 'about' Intersexuality, does not excuse your self centered quest to satisfy your desires, while failing to consider our feelings, as human beings.

Not in my book anyway.

Hi Patrick,

If I hadn't considered the remainder of your original message (and your follow-up also), I would've removed it. Since you had obviously taken the time to learn something about IS and were forthright in your desires, it was never seen as an issue to come and ask for sex.

I figure everyone here is an adult, and as such, quite capable of making up their own minds and able to exert control over their own lifes, I decided I would leave your post, as you posted it. However, as a co-founder and board member of Bodies Like Ours, I think it is important that my feelings of your request be known.

You should also know (a good lesson for your quest in fact) that there are many out there just like yourself and frankly, it gets old and irritating. It's not something to be dissected by your views on polyamory, nor for you to say it is just misguided lust on anyone's part. It's really a matter of respect.

Betsy

__________________
Until you've lost your reputation, you never realize what a burden it was or what freedom really is. --Margaret Mitchell

I don't mean to be harsh, and Betsy is right. You did take the time to learn about us.

I am just a bit of a grouch sometimes.

Please pardon me Patrick, and welcome.