SF Support Groups?

[WWW]

Hi,

I got here through ISNA. I'm a PAIS male and I was wondering if anyone knows about any support groups in the San Francisco Bay Area for people like me? So far I haven't found a single thing...

[miriam]

Originally Posted by WWW

Hi,

I got here through ISNA. I'm a PAIS male and I was wondering if anyone knows about any support groups in the San Francisco Bay Area for people like me? So far I haven't found a single thing...

Hi WWW,

That's a good question. But as far as I know most of the AIS support groups are for women only. Even though I understand why many women in those groups don't want to change this, I think it is a shame that there are no AIS groups for men with PAIS.

In the Dutch group we have a discussion how we can offer support to men with PAIS. But that is a work in progress...

Of course you can find some really nice people here at BLO, but if you want AIS specific support you might want to contact AISpeople. That's the only support group for AIS and similar conditions that accept males (as far as I know). Unfortunately that group seems to be in hibernation at the moment.

If you want to know more about AISPeople you can send an email to

Groeten, Miriam

[WWW]

Thanks, Miriam... I just e-mailed the group and I'll see what comes out of it. Otherwise I was thinking maybe I can ask (nicely) if other support groups will let me stop by although I am male.

[Meadow]

Originally Posted by miriam

. . . as far as I know most of the AIS support groups are for women only.

An AIS support group for WOMEN ONLY????? How can a support group be so exclusive and discriminatory when the ironic fact is that they are all XY in the first place???? I'm sorry, but that just doesn't sound right.

(Note: For those who may not have been here very long and don't know me, I am not IS, but rather I am trans. In my journeys I have found that many trans people have banded together, forming their own little clics based on how well they "pass" as women. Many of these same persons, of which should have a kindred spirit for other trans persons, have only contempt for me because I seek only the truth about my condition, a condition I do not claim to be pretty. I got tired of listening to other trans persons tell their self justifying lies and their rewriting their childhoods to align with something that fits within what they felt they needed to justify their transition. Thus, I came here, to BLO, because I believed that most persons here want ONLY the truth, no matter how hard of a pill that might be to swallow. But then to NOW learn that ANY support group, persons who should know ALL ABOUT DISCRIMINATION, should be discriminatory themselves, only leaves my head spinning in disbelief!!)


Meadow

[prince....ss?]

Welcome to BLO.

We are a friendly group here and we support persons of all intersex conditions ( even if you happen to be a man) Ouch!!!! Sorry Miriam

I know how it feels to be left out. When I was born all they called me was male pseudo hermaphrodite. So some time during my life when I had my back to my true condition a group of people got together and made a decision. They decided that hermaphrodite was a nasty word. Yes true it is right up there with calling someone a nigger. So the CAH folks got together with the AIS folks and this syndrome got talking with that condition and so on and so forth. So being that I don’t fit into any of these elite specialty groups for one reason or another ( oops, I own a uterus so no AIS, 46xy sorry no CAH for you) I am not given the secret handshake or password into these groups. So they all took their conditions and left this hermaphrodite behind to fend for myself. Sad story but true I’m a minority in this intersexed world they created.

So if they won’t take you because you know what you are, you’r welcome to join my party. I won’t judge you because your body is different than mine and I will accept you as the person that you are. Perhaps we will be able to help each other because we are both human beings in similar but different boats.

Welcome to BLO

[miriam]

Originally Posted by Meadow

An AIS support group for WOMEN ONLY????? How can a support group be so exclusive and discriminatory when the ironic fact is that they are all XY in the first place???? I'm sorry, but that just doesn't sound right.

(Note: For those who may not have been here very long and don't know me, I am not IS, but rather I am trans.

Sorry meadow, I don't want to offend you but I think that there is a reason why you can't understand why there are AIS support groups for women only: you don't have AIS. I've already said that the Dutch group is trying to find ways to offer support to men with PAIS. That isn't easy because men with PAIS have different needs than women with PAIS. This is also true for people with a partial form of the other XY intersex conditions. What's the use of discussing dilatation or having a dry vagina with a man with PAIS? What's the use of discussing the problems of having a tiny penis with a woman with PAIS?

When the AIS support groups started, it was common use to raise people with the partial forms of those conditions as girls. And the people who were raised as boys were probably never told about their condition.

Another thing that you might take in account: people with CAIS don't respond to androgens. You can give them androgens till it comes out of their ears, but you'll never be able to turn them into males. CAIS if far more common than PAIS.

Is it possible that you have no idea what people do in an AIS support group? I know that some people don't want to hear this, but in the AIS support group meetings I've attended so far, the main topics are NOT related to having XY chromosomes. Do I really have to explain to you, meadow, that the chromosomes don't define your sex?

Your reply makes it clear that you have no idea what it means to have AIS. And I don't ask you to understand. I'm the first to admit that I can't understand why transsexual people are jumping through hoops to have their body changed. But I do my best to respect you. Please respect us, even if you can't understand those silly girls with AIS.

Groeten, Miriam

[Sunshine1]

Hi Princess,

I read your post and I do get the concept of it but wanted to add that CAH happens in people that are XX or XY.

It's an adrenal gland metabolic endocrine condition where those that have it lack the ability to make partial or all cortisone and thus adrogens go unsupressed which then causes short statue virilism in females and excessive virilism in males that go untrreated - plus cause percoucious puberty and adrenal crisis that one may die from. It's been stated that male babies that from SIDS actually may of had CAH and died from adrenal crisis.

The amount of female chromosone babies with the what the heck are those external genitals are a small portion of those with CAH over all. i wasn't blessed to be born with an enlarged clitoris that my parents never would have had altered and how Besty devoted time to ask others why they are doing that to their children but I was born a Prader five or back in the day (70's) female -pseudo hermaphrodite secondary to Congenital Adrenal Hyperplsia aka the fucked up adrenal gland w/ no testes and only female sex organs but this funky what the hell is it external organ. They were disapointed that I wasn't a true hermaprodite in the medical records it was CAH....yeah we know what to do with that adreanl condition.

But, like you I have no problem with the word hermaphrodite, true 0r pseudo hermaphrodite either but don't really get intersex or the errors of sexual differentation what ever the people that matter are spouting. My concern is that people actually understand that at times don't feel well from CAH and how they medically treat it. My concern is how the adrenal gland is doing with the rest of my body at this age

Some people like closed of groups and others don't but that is the nature of each condition. I learned a lot from men with CAH and they were thoughtful and wise but others - men and women just might not be comfortable talking with each other. I've also learned from those with other conditions ....any condition but two people with CAH? it's just things they understand even though they might not come fro mthe same walk of life. With CAH? we finnish each others sentences and it's like yeah click. The same might be said for cancer which I am a two year survivor of and I was at a pub and got talking with these women that were cancer survivors for 10 years ..these two ladies ? we clicked and understood whereas say a nurse thats never had cancer would really,really get it. And then the thyroid thing? which I have as well lol at me but thyroid people are like energy connecting.

I look at other conditions and understand but it only to a point ..AIS? i wish for that condition becuase they are tall and beautiful and of couse there is so much more that that.

WWW,

If you don't find a group then what about starting your own ? but also glad that you found this board.

[Priestess]

A few years back, which is a long time ago on the net, I was on a mailing list where the moderator had CAIS. Apparently she had a proper girl's upbringing and female legal identity. But in the present, her recreational hours were spent in a sort of dragking/stonebutch personae. Which raises the question in my mind of whether the purity of her medical pedigree would be enough to allow the AIS to support her? or if she would she be shunned as "a man" ?

I can appreciate the predicament that the AIS community must see itself in. If they were ever found lending their support to partials and/or transsexuals who happen to medically have AIS, their social/legal status as women might evaporate before their very eyes. And certainly they don't have gender issues, so why should they sacrifice everything for others who are too flawed to be saveable? Their community must remain pure in order to assist anyone at all. And why should some innocent teenage girl with CAIS have to lend support to some pais man who's probably crazy and has identity issues? The lifeboat wasn't intended to hold everyone ...

The only objection I have is that groups like the AISSG pretend to be supportive of a whole list of "associated conditions" which aren't AIS but mostly seem to involve underviralization and female reproductive systems. They even have themselves listed (online) as support for those conditions. Yet that's a lie. If you try to contact them about these associated conditions, they tell you to go away. But because the unknowing masses refer you to them for support, this takes away our chance to find any particular group.

And I'm sure the same goes for "men" with pais. The whole world telling them to go to AIS groups that have monopolized "support" yet won't have them.

Princess, you and me seem to have been born with much the same anatomy. Except that my ovulations suck and my natural produced hormones are destroying me. And I bet there are many more in the world in our situation, all we have to do is ignore the established non-support groups and find each other. Why do we need the AIS groups? they are nothing to us. Disregard Miriam's claims of how you (or I) don't understand the AIS, it's just as clear that they are either incapable or unwilling of understanding our experiences. Dna tests that (correctly or incorrectly) show us with a little bit of y-ness, those don't make us birds of their feather. The dna isn't nearly as important as the anatomical structures it causes to develop, and the AIS'ers aren't the same. How could they know anything? They need their state of mind.

Just my inflammatory 2 cents worth. But most of the internet already hates me anyways.
this might help keep the forums busy

Melissa S.
(does the S stand for Stribling? mmm, probably not)

[WWW]

Thanks everyone for your comments. Yesterday I followed some leads and found a yahoogroup that seems to be semi-active and I did some investigating on the ISNA website.

This debate about male/female support groups interests me... I guess I can see why males would not necessarily be welcome in most groups. It kind of leads me to blindly speculate about why there's no groups for AIS males out there. Is it because there are statistically fewer of us? Because more of us are "in the closet"?

In my own case, I think I did have my back turned on my condition for a long time. For many years I was told that I was born a male and the surgery and hormonal treatment was to make me more like what I was "supposed to be." So I just didn't think about it for a long time. I guess I couldn't really complain, since I can sympathize with my parents somewhat and besides, the health complications associated with my case are relatively few compared to some of my cousins and relatives with AIS.

When I turned 21 I had a full disclosure session with the endocrinologist who was in charge of my case since childhood. It was then that I started to find it difficult to ignore my PAIS, especially since doubts were raised about whether or not I could produce sperm-- I'd always wanted to have kids and this felt like a big blow to me.

After I got back to school last December I started sliding big-time in my work. I didn't graduate on time and am currently still slogging away at my degree. My therapist thinks these two areas of my life are connected: that I put work off to keep my mind occupied so I don't have to worry about these gender identity and sexual issues floating up there in the ether. The more I think about it, the more I'm inclined to agree. My parents told me to keep my condition under wraps for so long, who knows what it was doing to me on the inside? I'd like to be more honest about myself.

Anyway, that's me in a nutshell. Thanks for listening, I guess I gotta keep moving...