Hi again. I have a group of interesting questions. I have heard that it is very important to "wait untill a child is old enough" SO that they can have a part in the choice of surgery, or give their approval to genital surgery.

What determines when a child is old enough??

If they have ambigous gentials, a child will learn very early that they are diffrent, but how does "maturity" play a role in how they will handle that information?

"Immaturity" plays a huge part in how any child can or cannot deal with tough choices like surgery or their body in its natural state. Maturity plays a role in every thing a child does, but If we waited for Kids to become mature about all things we may as well give up being parents altogeather. The most difficult choices children face are made by our parents every day, because they are parents, why may I dare to ask should intersexualism be any diffrent?

Speaking of parents, what about the maturity of the intersexed child's parents?

Is it enough to to tell parents to postpone surgery, have them meet a few intersexed activists, give them a few phone numbers, give them a web site for support, and a few friendly calls and then send them on their way to raise their intersexed child?

What if they don't have the support of family, peers or doctors when they make a choice to not give their child surgery?

What happens when the parent is a single parent and cannot send a child to a special school or cannot afford therapy to help their intersexed child? What if there will NOT be any money for the child to change sex or have corrective surgery, if the child wants it, unless the operation is done early?

How many of us can put ourselves in the shoes of a parent, faced with such choices?

Then add on the immaturity level of some parents, who would rather go out and party than raise children.

If parents can't answer questions to a young child about the very diffrent body they have, who does a child turn to? Can a intersexed child raise themselves? And Answer it's own questions about sexual identiy? If it can't trust it's own family and if it can't trust the doctors,can it trust it's own peers for help? What peer group would understand about intersexulism?
A peer group of five year olds?
A peer group of ten years olds?
A peer group of sixteen year olds?

Do you just give them a book about hermaphidites at age Six and let them decide?

Or do you wait untill their twenty, after the most important developmental stages has already happend to their bodies and after they have firmly seated themslves in a sexual role?

Is not asking a parent to "Wait untill the child is old enough" to simple of a answer to a very complex situation??

I'm not saying surgery is always the correct answer but How can anybody tell a family not to give early surgey to a child, when they are not the ones raiseing the child and these questions are still on top of the list, and have yet to be answered by intersexed activists.

Of course parents have raised intersexed children naturally with out surgery but it seems their storys are few, and and they seemed to have had a lot of support, far more support then just a handfull of intersexed activist could have given them.

Also with all the diffrent kinds of intersexed states around some would be a lot easer to raise then others. Some of course don't even know that they are intersexed untill later in life when something does or does not happen to their body.

Given all the questions I'm raising, Yes I'm still against mutilating and sexualy abusing intersexed children. I'm not saying the doctors have all the right answers. Or that interesexed activists are all wrong. I'm saying there is a grey area of unanswered questions and that bothers me.

I don't think that all genital surgery is mutilation. I don't think all parents can handle the truths about intersexulism and all of the toughest questions about genital surgery still have yet to be answered in such a way that satisfys me:(

all of your comments about these questions are welcome.

__________________
You really have to love yourself, to get anything done in this world!

Julanne

Hey Jules, :)

My parents, I think, did it well...

* They never lied to me that I know of.
* They tried to answer my questions by giving examples that I could understand. And they never seemed to have an "agenda" other than to help me understand.
* They punished me for disobedience but not for things they thought inappropriate for my gender.
* They always tried to explain why things were right or wrong and I was expected to learn to choose the right on my own. It wasn't that they thought right and wrong were relative; it was that my moral character should be such that I wouldn't have to be told. As I matured they expected more self-discipline rather than externally applied discipline. As Christians they were much more concerned with winning my heart than with conforming my behavior.
* I knew they'd always be there for me.
* Mom was a nurse and closely supervised my medical treatment.

I don't believe that parents should try to hide anything regarding their condition from their child. However, they should take care that their explanations are appropriate. In my mind that means that the explanation should help the child to mature and to accept their bodies without shame and without undue pride. In my mind it's best that the child realize that intersex is no big deal. Even if the doctors panic. Even if the babysitters panic. Even if a few of their friends don't understand.

Anyway, that's my opinion! :)

cjs

Hay ClaraJane, thanks for the reply. I must ask what kind of medical treatment did you get?

Also I do think that having a nurse as a mother was a huge plus on your side. you were very lucky.

It would interested me in knowing what kind of support your family had in raising you. Or what lack of support, which ever the case may be.

[QUOTE] they should take care that there explanations should help the child to mature.

That is a very very important part of the puzzle that I struggle with.

What type of enviroment helps the child to mature?

What type of enviroment helps parents to be mature enough, to look at being intersexed as you put it, no big deal.

What type of examples were you given and at what age?

It does sound like you were a very mature child, that had very understanding parents with a lot of love.

Maybe love is a key to the puzzle of intersexulism.

It sounds like you grew up with incredibly secure and intelligent parents.

the problem is, when the parents can't handle intersexualism.

The problem is, what do you do about any problem with child raising when the parents are not mature enough to deal with very tough issues.

Common sense, if your genital anomoly is so diffrent and strange (many ambigous genitals are very strange, not looking at all like male or female) that you can tell right from the start that no body would want to be left with genitals that are disfuntional. Why would you wait to have the child to make the choice?

Also many of the people who are unhappy with the fact that they didn't get the choice to pick there gender or choose surgery, never got to see what they really looked like at birth.

They might see other people who had a similar condition but that is not at all the same as what they may have looked like.

They don't have the perspective of looking at themselves at birth and saying, well Now I see why my parents made the choice.

Or they don't have the view of, well my parents were 21 or 22 at the time and just didn't have the maturity to deal with the situation without surgery to soften the problem

thank you for your input, it is very helpfull. May I ask what kind of type of intersexed condition you had??

__________________
You really have to love yourself, to get anything done in this world!

Julanne

Hi Jules,

I'm a mosaic of XY and XO (Turner syndrome female). My family didn't know that when I was growing up. What we knew was that I was tiny, had a wind-chimes singing voice, crossed eyes, and that cute face so typical of Turner's kids.

Part of what kept everyone happy was that my parents were very interested in academics, I was bright, and nobody bothers someone who is tiny, cute, bright, and crazy. (I have a friend who, upon hearing that I'd walked away from a plane crash said "The Lord watches over the innocent and the insane and I know you ain't innocent. :) "

I'm not sure that, as a parent, one can predict what an IS child will want. And you can't just let them have whaetever they want. I firmly believe that the parents are the ones who are in the best position to decide certain things. It's nice when they are responsible and can be horrible if they're not.

There are several reasons that I'd wait for surgery. One is that, at least in xy/xo there are no guarantees that you can predict the gender without actually asking the child. I desperately wanted to be either a girl or a boy. But, oddly enough, I wasn't so sure that I wanted to be a man or a woman. I didn't develop and didn't start on hormones until I was 22. That's too late to share the "joys" of puberty with peers.

Only about a quarter of xy/xo kids get a growth spurt. Without it I'd have been perhaps 4'6". But, I got mine and grew until I started taking hormones. And although adrenal hormones lowered my voice a little, sometimes it feels as though I'm still that pixie with the wind-chimes voice.

I don't know about you Jules, but I'm better off not dwelling too long on the past. There were happy times long ago and I'm doing well now but there was a decade of pain in between.

Kind regards,
cjs

When is the right time to tell a child?
I think the right time is when a child starts asking questions. Parents should tell the truth because children can tell when they are lied to.

I remember feeling scared when my mother tried to explain to me (at age 6 or 7), that something was wrong with my "glands". I was scared about anything medical, because it meant bad tasting medicine, needles, things inserted in my body and med-exams. I also felt kind of guilty for not being normal.
So, in a way, I choose to push away or repress any medical information anyone tried to give me. I couldn't bear thinking about it. I also felt that others "owned" me and could do with me as they pleased, so why bother to think about that myself? Anyway, at that age I was more interested in skating and playing with dolls.:)
Being "sick" meant not beeing allowed to do certain things, so I often denied having any problems.
A few times I came up with a question myself and didn't get an answer I was satisfied with.

Parents may have their own psychological problems, and their childs intersexuality may amplify some of the problems. But I think that is not specific for intersexuality.

After all, I believe it's more important, that your parents love you than give you some cold medical information.

Sofie

Very very true!!! I wanted to say hello Sofie, and nice post.

I to often deny I have problems, I do that as a adult:D as well!!

Intersexualituy though, I think has such a huge range of condtions from internal to exsternal, very mild to very exstreme, a parent's psychological make up and the money or medical insurance they may have or not does play a big role in some and a smaller role in others. I think it is revelant. Even the psychological make up of babys are diffrent.
Some babys are happy all the time. Some babys are shy. SOme babys love strangers, some don't. Diffrent people going through the same exsperence can see it very diffrently, I think that includes intersexuality.

If you think I dwelling to long on intersexualtiy too long Clara Jane,I can understand that. What i will suggest to you is that I spent 31 years of my life never knowing what I was(A intersexual)
It is hard to go back to when I thought That I was no diffrent then any other girl other then just being a real geek with a incomplete body . My mother died young so I don't have her to talk to this about. Sure, things are going realy well for me and I should I guess, forget about the past and carry on with what I think is my very good life. Though.., so much was kept in the dark from me, to protect me I guess. I find fasanating uncovering the past, and other peoples pasts who were not to unlike mine.
P.s... I was a happy Baby

__________________
You really have to love yourself, to get anything done in this world!

Julanne

When to tell a child he/she is intersexed is very complex. But ,certainly, not to tell them at all is bad and to deny it when the child grows up and asks is even worse. "mommy, why am I like this?" at age 8 or 9 , is a much different situation than : Mom, what happened to me as a child, did this and that etc happen"? Although I was finally able to get a sliver about what happened to me a year ago, I think that my mother was very scared then, endured WWII as a German teenager (she seen bombings, killing etc.) she had just remarried to an American soldier, came to a new country (neither she or I spoke English) and had to abide by the new "authorities".....American Army male medical doctors in Fort Carson, Colo. She went through a lot with me, "rescued" me from PE class in grade school so I didn't have to attend anymore, she was the one who always took me to the hospital, not just for shots and stuff, but I was sickly a lot. ( I am so glad my step-father didn't! ) I think she remains scared (guilt?)..she was very emotional when I spoke with her at that time and she has had heart problems, so I don't ask (anymore) and don't tell (of being TS)...just like the military protocol for gays. "I'm fine, I'm happy, I'm healthy, don't worry". A gross lie, BUT:
Let her enjoy some peace in her older years. I forgive her.

Dana,

I don't think it is fair to harbor anger at our parents regarding surgery. They were told it was what must be done, even today some new parents hear that. Part of the protocol still being practiced at some hospitals means never sharing the info with the child for fear of "confusing" him or her. Secrets in any family are never a good thing.

Any parent wants a happy, healthy child and when they are being told that we can be "fixed" with surgery, or "cured", and will be happy with the results, they follow the suggestions. Many parents today, while still not being given full information, do at least have the internet to find information.

As far as telling them, I think it should start immediately when the child starts to become aware of his or her gender and sexuality in age appropriate ways. It forces the parent to confront their own fears about sexuality and gender in ways they never thought they would, but if they are comfortable in their own body, chances are that same comfort will be passed on to the child.

If parents are not comfortable discussing it, they can enlist the help of a caring and compassionate therapist to help them.

Seeking out peer support can also help.

Betsy

__________________
Until you've lost your reputation, you never realize what a burden it was or what freedom really is. --Margaret Mitchell

The children and parents are/were at the mercy of the medical authorities who profess/ed to know and did perform the "correct" procedures to make things "normal" . It is that "normalcy" concept and its proponents and executors that are the real at fault agencies in this crazy world. The families suffer because of things that were meant to alleviate suffering...."do no harm by doing harm"...doesn't make sense. Oh well....Things are a tad better today, but in my time in the 50s and 60s it must have been wretched....it was for me!