DSD / Intersex labeling - Discussion

[mohnblume]

There are plenty of famous androgynous people. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Androgyne


Hmmmm... Michel Jackso is an intersexual?????????

[Wyn]

I guess I'd like to put forward some thoughts on a few of the replys posted.

First, in regards to turtledove's comments.

I do think that 'picking and choosing' various points of previous posts, and then making negative commentary on them truly does little to enlighten or further the discourse. To me, it seems to simply berate or negate these particular snippets, without understanding the full context in which they were written. Fortunately, these items are located in this thread, such that interested parties can see these items in their full context. It would certainly be better to make some of your own observations or talking points, and then offer some solutions to any problems that you see, rather than just tear apart and leave in a dishelveled heap that which has come before.

In terms of mohnblume's somewhat humorous tongue-in-cheek suggestions;
heres the term from the Merriam-Webster Online Dictionary;

androgyne
One entry found for androgyne.
Main Entry: an•dro•gyne
Pronunciation: 'an-dr&-"jIn
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English androgine, from Latin androgynus
: one that is androgynous
------------------------------------------------
One entry found for androgynous.
Main Entry: an•drog•y•nous
Pronunciation: an-'drä-j&-n&s
Function: adjective
Etymology: Latin androgynus hermaphrodite, from Greek androgynos, from andr- + gynE woman -- more at QUEEN
1 : having the characteristics or nature of both male and female
2 a : neither specifically feminine nor masculine <the androgynous pronoun them> b : suitable to or for either sex <androgynous clothing>
3 : having traditional male and female roles obscured or reversed <an androgynous marriage>
------------------------------------------------------------------
I would suggest that Michael Jackson fits entry #2 and, possibly, #3...however, the connotation that he's Intersex is not there, and, while - if asked - he may Wish to be Intersex, he probably is Not.

Personally, I would venture a VERY strong guess he Isn't - in fact I remember when this young man - not so young anymore - first started out with the Jackson 5 - he was a cute little boy with a gift for singing and theatrical dancing that had been drilled into him from a very early age. Probably Why he is so messed up now.

All this said, I'm not so sure that 'getting a celebrity' would necessarily be in the IS community's best interest, given that we may end up with someone who does NOT have either a 'good' reputation (or loses it in a drugged or drunken state), nor may have our best interests in mind. I seriously doubt that we could 'choose' any particular 'celebrity' to represent 'us' ... these people live for the income from such endorsements - I know I do NOT have the 'deep pockets' that would be required.

Moreover, I KNOW that I would NOT want any of the individuals that currently Have or seek 'Celebrity' to be a spokesperson for ME - in Any way. I feel that any of us could speak far more eloquently, and with a personal Passion in such a way that None of these so-called 'celebrities' could.

If you want My vote regarding a spokesperson, I would whole-heartedly suggest either our own Betsy, or ISNA's Cheryl Chase. Both have a vast store of knowledge and personal experience, and have spoken at length to numerous organizations and gatherings. I suspect that there are others currently involved in the IS cause, who could do as good a job as these exemplary people, but I'm just not that familiar with everyone doing so.

[turtledove]

"I do think that 'picking and choosing' various points of previous posts, and then making negative commentary on them truly does little to enlighten or further the discourse."

-I assure you that I fully read ALL that is written. I then respond to the bits that I have an opinion, experience, information on. I don't feel chatty. Expecially since I don't know you people.

"To me, it seems to simply berate or negate these particular snippets, without understanding the full context in which they were written."

-I am sorry that you get the impression I am berating or negative. Perhaps it is because of my style which is a bit robotic(unchatty, autistic, schizoid etc.). I guess to some people I might sound like a know-it-all teacher grading their posts. I do not think I know-it-all nor do I wish to correct what is written (unless it is offensive). I insist that I do understand the full context of all that is written.


"Fortunately, these items are located in this thread, such that interested parties can see these items in their full context."
-That is what I expected people would do.

"It would certainly be better to make some of your own observations or talking points, and then offer some solutions to any problems that you see"

-I made many observations in my post entitled "my thoughs on some quotes from this thread". A few of my observations like 'lol' or 'heh' might not have been helpfull- they were just my feelings. However, I did make 7 other clear and important observations. I posed some questions also. I hope someone will respond to any of the 7 points I made. Currently I don't have solutions to most problems. My own life is a struggle. That is why I am here. I hope that if everyone puts their heads together maybe we could come up with some solutions.
-My reply to mohnblume with the wikipedia link was helpfull I think. If if wasn't why did everyone look at it.



"seriously doubt that we could 'choose' any particular 'celebrity' to represent 'us' "
-I agree. I wouldn't have a clue how to get a celebrity interested. They would have to volunteer because it affected them personally.

"I KNOW that I would NOT want any of the individuals that currently Have or seek 'Celebrity' to be a spokesperson for ME - in Any way."

-Me either. I dont respect most american hollywood celebrities. I can speak for myself. I think the purpose of a celebrity is to excite the TV news media into picking up a story.

"If you want My vote regarding a spokesperson, I would whole-heartedly suggest either our own Betsy, or ISNA's Cheryl Chase."

-I hope I can learn more about Cheryl Chase and Betsy.


I am new to this forum. I hope to learn some things or even possibly make some friends. My main goal is to improve my medical system from neglegent, incompetent, and harmfull, to compassionate, well informed, and helpfull. I don't know how. Doctor don't care about me. We have to be united and vocal for the good of us all.

Turtledove

[Morgan]

I agree with Miriam and Peter - labelling intersex conditions as a disorder has all sorts of bad consequences, medical and non-medical, including stigmatization and migration problems.

A disorder sounds like it needs correcting, surgically, horminally, whatever "works". In contrast, a medical condition can be entirely benign or manageable.

[sparklingdreams]

I happen to be in favor of the D.S.D. model for change,

Not because I feel my ambiguous genitals should define me as disordered as a person, but simply that my I have a Disorder of Sex Development. There are many reasons I support this model, instead of Intersex, and while I've mentioned most of them else where, and may repeat myself here again. I'll try to focus on reasons I haven't covered yet.

First, and I know I just said this, but D.S.D. is meant to define the disease that causes our ambiguous genitals as the disorders, not as us being disordered (or even deformed) it's a road way in to talking about the underlying cause of our genital birth defects'. I just felt this needed repeated.

Then, contrary to how many here seem to feel D.S.D. is not a replacement to Intersex! The truth is Intersex has become many things to many people. Where as D.S.D. is focused on changing the medical paradigm first & foremost and then of course educating parents.

Now while I've read a lot of post saying that the D.S.D. model is simply a way of continuing the medical communities idea that we are disordered and deformed, and therefore can be fixed by genetic mutation. This is barely, but slightly, true. The D.S.D. model is a way of using the medical establishments current ideas for our benefit. I agree that the medical establishment sees' us as people they need to fix. Either by making us more sexually functional, or by focusing on making us appear more sexual correct'. Now to be completely rational we'll never convince the medical communities that what causes our genitals to mutate is not a disorder. Because by very definition they are disorders: (6.to derange the physical or mental health or functions of.) Whether any of us like the fact from a medical view point we are born with disorders that have, in most cases, known causes. This is the very basis of the medical establishment, to resolve disorders. Their goal of resolving disorders is not the problem that effects most of, it's how they address Disorders of Sex Development is the problem. If we continue to tell the medical community that these aren't disorders we may as well be talking to a wall. We have to work to change their approach within their world. D.S.D. does this. It works with their idea to change what is done about Disorders of Sex Development. Which is possible, and has already shown great promise.

Second as so many constantly mention, and refer to themselves as here. Intersex has become an identity for some people, however that is not the case, statistically, for most of us born with any of the D.S.D.. Most simply try to find were they fit in the gender spectrum (yes spectrum I'm not implying absolutes) and live their lives. Statistically Doctors seem to be right 50% of the time (no duh huh), minus a small portion (which seem to make up the majority here) they identify as intersex or some third sex. So again I mention that D.S.D. is not a replacement to Intersex. These are not competing methods D.S.D. is a model to directly stop infant genital mutilations period & effect the medical treatment of all D.S.D.. We're not trying to remove Intersex as an identity, we're not working toward removing gender binary assignments at birth. Those of us working within the D.S.D. model & movement are focusing exclusively on implementing changes in the medical communities treatment of those born & living with any of the D.S.D.. In order to change the medical establishments view on how to treat those of us born with any of the D.S.D. we have to do that with the medical community and not against,

To me this argument is basically mute. D.S.D. and Intersex are two separate movements, they are different from any perspective. They are not competing models, nor even necessarily complimentary ones. Think of the D.S.D. model as the movement toward a cure for breast cancer and Intersex as the movement working toward a cure for cancer.