Just Stumbled In...

[Rycharde]

Originally Posted by Sara Zeal

Huh, well that's only a solid fact if it's complete, and then why do you want everyone to know?

Say someone is mosaic 5% XX 90% XXY 5% XY, has male genitals, identifies as male, and doesn't want to be seen as anything but male (understandably), then what is wrong there?

Oh and people who already assume M means male genitals *will* assume XY means the same. Unless you have XO, XXY or another variation, they'll ask questions, and not necessarily in a nice way.

I really don't see how could this save you in emergency/prison or police situations.

Maybe women with CAIS wouldn't want to be seen as XY, and men with de la chapelle syndrome wouldn't want to be seen as XX too. It's personal.

If someone wants to tell a friend, or their doctor or anything, they can, but you can't force *everyone* to do so, just because you think it benefits *you*.

I look female, sound female, smell female if you will, but have male genitals - until surgery they won't let me change it to F...but past that they will, if it was chromosomes I'd be stuck with XY, and the same problems, all my life.

If you want to be 'precise' about someone you'd have to include chromosomes, gonads and how many there are or were (if removed), hormone levels average, fertility and I'd go as far as saying BSTc size (when measurable alive) should be pointed out too - and I really wonder what people checking my passport would think of all this junk that's really personal...a M or F is more anonymous, if you need to bring precision for the sake of care, you can do so, but you should not be forced to do so.

Ok all good points there.
However I think that the best point is that you are right we'd have to put the total percentages, then the gonads and if they were removed and etc etc etc. Never thought into that much detail.

So again, you feel that your chromosomes are personal. I feel that my junk is private.
Obviously you don't want anyone who isn't a medical professional knowing what kind of junk you have in your pants either so then why is M or F on the ID card at all?

Maybe it should be mandatory to have it on file and readily accessible for those who have concerns in the medical field.

I don't see how you aren't concerned with insurance and health care. If I have a hysterectomy this year and change my F to an M I could have chest surgery because I am "male" and under the age of 30. In Ontario if you have fatty breast tissue, and are male under 25 you can have a chest reduction paid for by ohip.

I think that boxing it in to M and F is premature and unreasonable at any rate.

So if you can't fit everyone into A or B when there are so many in betweens then maybe we should not have anything on our IDs at all other than our names, birthdays and ID codes that can be accessed by government officials and medical professionals to give a detailed list like you said, of every cell, gene and drop of blood in a persons body so they can get treatment.

I also think insurance policies are retarded to separate things into M and F. A female can get a pap covered, a male can not. A female can get a hysterectomy covered, a male can not. A male can have a prostate exam, a female can not.
But what if that female happens to have a prostate? Then she has to pay for her exams?
What about people who are going to stay in between forever and do not identify as either?
There are a whole tonne of combinations out there.

I'm not saying I am right. I am saying that just using M or F is wrong and really inaccurate.

You have proven in this discussion that using your chromosomes is also as shallow and wrong.

So I'd say what the solution has to be is making it entirely private and completely detailed. Sound right?

[kate.pixiecat]

Originally Posted by Rycharde

So I'd say what the solution has to be is making it entirely private and completely detailed. Sound right?

In principle, yes. However there would have to be some form of tiered security to control who can access what. Here in the UK the government is slowly uploading everyone's medical records onto a new computer system called the 'spine'. This will offer advances such as a centralised database of every patient's allergies, adverse drug reations, diagnoses etc.

The issue is that over a million people in the UK work for the healthcare system, and every single one of them will have access to the spine database. This means that over 1 in 50 people will have access to any patient's records which can hardly be called private!

I think on the whole it's a good idea though as it means that for example, penicillin (hopefully) won't be given to someone who is allergic. I do however think that only doctors and nurses directly connected with anybody's treatment should have access to anything beyond date of birth, current medication, allergies, adverse drug reactions and next of kin.

[miriam]

According to George W. Bush it is really easy: if you have XY-chromosomes you are a man. And if you have XX-chromosomes you are a woman.

Rycharde, you didn't answer my question. Why do you want me to share that I have XY chromosomes with e.g. an immigration officer if you don't want to share what's in your pants with the guy that sells you porn/smokes/beer etc?

You assume that people will ask you what to do if the see a girl and read in ones ID that this girl has XY-chromosomes. Why do you think that people will ask anything? Please read this:

http://flashwarner.com/2006/08/100_p...hamp_2006.html

I think that you may have serious gender problems. Not just a gender identity disorder but an identity disorder as well. Given the fact that you have 3 children, the chance that you might have XY-chromosomes is about 0. You don't know a shit about transsexuality or intersexuality. As you already said yourself: you just stumbled in. Please go back were you came from and read a lot about TS and IS before you come back.

You don't listen to arguments and you don't want to answer to questions. In other words...you behave like a troll.


Groeten, Miriam

[Sara Zeal]

Sadly, if it becomes known, like Michelle Dumaresq there in that article, they immediately cry to outrage over an advantage.

I'm no doubt PAIS grade 1, I have a very small female-like body, never could build any muscles, despite normal levels of testosterone, could not grow tall (I'm 5'6") or even have a portion of a 'Man's strength' but all this wouldn't matter to the name callers. I'd be XY and so 'a man' to them.

On another level, there are those who don't compete in sports, but in beauty/talent that receive scorn in the same way, like Ha-Ri-Su, a 32 years old MtF born in Thailand who lives in Japan who does modeling/acting/singing, what stands out isn't her ability but that 'she used to be a man' (frankly, given how she looks, it's very doubtful - she might have been IS too, or simply very lucky).

[Rycharde]

I just wanted to understand thats all. It's not my system it's a voting system that a lot of people in Australia fought for.

So before fighting for something, finding out what we're fighting for matters most over anything.

Obviously no matter what my chromosomes are when someone looks at my ID they're going to ask questions right?

Maybe the best solution is a choice.
Being able to choose whether or not to display your sex on your ID.

I want my details to come up at the hospital when I check in. I want them to know that I'm female in some aspects but that I respectively go by dominantly male pronouns (unless you're chanting you go girl, because this lady is a diva!)
I want them to know that while I am nursing I bind heavily, that I should be given a pregnancy test before administering narcautics or certain treatments. That a pap may be necessary. But I also want them to know that I am a queer male sexually and that I may have colon problems because of a family history and my own sexual preferences. I want all this on my file because I want to be handled with the best care that can be afforded to me. They need to know I'm on hormone therapy when I'm on my T. They need to know that I'm breastfeeding my baby, like when I was in a coma in 05 and I had three nurses doing shift work pumping my breasts when I was unconscious so I could continue to nurse my daughter when I woke up.( after 2 weeks!)
My mother made sure all that happened for me and I want all this on file, where people who need to see it, can see it. Just like if I was allergic to latex or something I want that right there on my file. These are the people who need to know everything about me, not the guy I buy my porn, smokes and beer from, or the guy that checks me onto a flight at the airport.

So chromosomes aren't an option for many people it seems. M and F are not options for me.
I don't want someone thinking I'm male, because I'm not! I don't have a prostate, I don't have testicles. I don't even want a phalloplasty. But I ain't no lady either so I don't want to confuse people with an F.
I need my paps covered! But I also need to have the two inch monster in my pants given just a little credit, and the fact that I grew up as, look act and sound male (although I'm quite the flamer), yeah a little influence there!

So it's blank for me. I don't think anyone should have a misleading gender marker. If you're not 100% male don't have an M, so on!

[Rycharde]

Originally Posted by miriam

According to George W. Bush it is really easy: if you have XY-chromosomes you are a man. And if you have XX-chromosomes you are a woman.

Rycharde, you didn't answer my question. Why do you want me to share that I have XY chromosomes with e.g. an immigration officer if you don't want to share what's in your pants with the guy that sells you porn/smokes/beer etc?

You assume that people will ask you what to do if the see a girl and read in ones ID that this girl has XY-chromosomes. Why do you think that people will ask anything? Please read this:

http://flashwarner.com/2006/08/100_p...hamp_2006.html

I think that you may have serious gender problems. Not just a gender identity disorder but an identity disorder as well. Given the fact that you have 3 children, the chance that you might have XY-chromosomes is about 0. You don't know a shit about transsexuality or intersexuality. As you already said yourself: you just stumbled in. Please go back were you came from and read a lot about TS and IS before you come back.

You don't listen to arguments and you don't want to answer to questions. In other words...you behave like a troll.


Groeten, Miriam

And I said I saw a nice lady. Wow obviously you ARE right. There are a tonne of common misconceptions in this world.

I'm digging for answers, just like you were at one point in your life and just because I've kicked up a little dust and gotten your dress soiled a little gives you no right to sling hateful or cruel words at anyone.

I'm going to state that I have been living as a male for 12 years once again. That I have been in therapy for most of my life and that I have been a major pillar in the development of several gender varient groups in my area.

I don't have any problems with who I am and just because I'm not content fitting into a pair of heels or a plaid shirt gives you no right to go against who I am an make such blind and uneducated asumptions about another human being.

You might think to be miss high and mighty because you have this and that and have solidly fit yourself into a normal gender role in society dispite your challenges but there are some of us who accept that we don't have to.

I wear girl clothes, I have facial hair and I am a proud pregnant man. Does this bother you?
Does it bother you that I love my sexual organs the way they are and yet I choose to date homosexual men?
Am I an abomination to even you?

Then I can say I've lost hope in your world and you are a sad representation of your self.
To think maybe someone else who is born different could understand and be met with someone so rude.
Yes, you definitely are a woman, but theres another word I could use for it.


I'd like to apologize to absolutely everyone else on here, and I'd like to say that in the least this has been a learning experience for me as a human being.

I have learned that society has not progressed as far as I had hoped. I have learned that even amongst people who are variant in gender because of medical conditions are judgmental and cruel to anyone who does not meet standards and that to find myself I'm just going to have to look somewhere else where people won't tear me apart for asking questions, voicing opinions different then theirs and having a mind of my own.

I came here because I hoped to be understood. I hoped to find someone else who is not trans sexual, who has grown in some way knowing they are both sexes and has found the strength to accept themselves for who they are because that is what my life is about. Accepting and embracing my whole self.

If you can't even accept me being here then I'll leave. I know when I'm not welcomed.

[Peter]

I am interested in Rycharde's comments about Australia. Is it true that Australian voters approved an ID system that uses a person's karyotype as a basis for personal identification? I am opposed to using a person's karyotype as a form of public identification. It sounds to me like a deeply flawed scheme that ultimately strengthens the hand of those people who believe that "XY" equals male, and "XX" equals female. Even if it was a voluntary system, it could easily evolve into an involuntary system through social pressures for personal conformity. I am wondering who proposed and advocated for the Australian system. I would appreciate any light that can be shed on this topic.

I think that Rycharde has a right to post opinions that might be unpopular. I don't believe that Rycharde believes in curtailing personal freedom, but is merely thinking out loud about issues of personal identity. I wish that more people would think out loud about issues of sex, gender, and personal identity.

Peter

[Dana Gold]

I am wondering who proposed and advocated for the Australian system. I would appreciate any light that can be shed on this topic.

Many countries ( United Kingdom, and some Western European nations) already have a "national ID card" in effect and others ( USA etc)are considering one ...... and with modern "scientific advances" are proposing biometric identifiers as part of the card technology.....DNA being ever popular has been part of the discussion...how far "they" will go with biometric identifiers is anybody's guess....anyway; a bit (below) on the Australian version (with history/background and current proposals:

Identifiers can be innate, unique and unchanging physical characteristics, such as fingerprints and DNA. They may be physical but subject to change, through for example aging or through gender reassignment surgery.

Identifiers can be assigned by the state or by nongovernment organisations, for example an identity number that can be embodied in an identity card and recorded in a register for statistical enumeration (so many dead souls in Bialystock or Boggabri) or other purposes, the scarlet letter worn by Hester Prynne or the 'F' for 'Felon' burnt into the skin of some pre-industrial criminals. ….snip/////
Identity can be chose - established - by the individual, through for example that person's career path, choice of associates, self-description in particular contexts ('Accountant', 'Methodist', 'Gay').

Identity may be determined through vetting and identity referencing processes. It can also be determined through tools such as biometrics, which seek to re-identify an innate characteristic and match that information with a record.

http://www.caslon.com.au/australiacardprofile1.htm

Individuals would be required to 'produce' the card (including provide a government agency or business with their number) for a range of reasons, including -
• opening accounts and subsequently engaging in transactions with financial institutions, including receiving/sending foreign remittances
• engaging in investment transactions and financial futures trading
• receipt of income, including money from property rental, primary production (agriculture, fisheries, forestry) and some trusts
• real estate transactions
• safe deposit box transactions
• employment
• taxation and prescribed payments
• seeking and receipt of health insurance benefits
• government unemployment, disability, aged pension and other social security benefits
• public hospital services
http://www.caslon.com.au/australiacardprofile3.htm

Another link: http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au...2-2702,00.html

PS: I'm of the opinion that our present (executive/judicial branches) gov't (US) would like to have "sex identifiers" chip-imbedded in the "Real ID cards" to "identify" the the people they deem "undesirable"....for "national security" purposes.

According to George W. Bush it is really easy: if you have XY-chromosomes you are a man. And if you have XX-chromosomes you are a woman.

A past discussion here in BLO Land touched upon this subject; It really would be "federal law" that a person with XY chromosomes would be a man on the Real ID card, and vice versa.....any variations?...probably a Y chromosome would mean man to them.....this is "their" current mind-set.

Dana

[apple]

National ID is more than a mere considered possibility.

Federally required REAL ID is just National ID by another name. The compliance deadline for REAL ID has merely been pushed back slightly.

It is still the law.


"Because states may have difficulty complying before the May 11, 2008, deadline, DHS will grant an extension of the compliance deadline until December 31, 2009. States that have received extensions will, over the course of the waiver period, submit proposed timetables for compliance." - Department of Homeland Security
http://www.dhs.gov/xnews/releases/pr_1172765989904.shtm


Here is video showing a test, by The State Of Texas Department Of Safety, of the version of REAL ID which they propose. It functions as debit card, and the video shows a woman buying gas with it at the pump.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QeS2j7yK66k

I believe it wont be long, before cash is no longer an option, and in fact the Fed has also said the same.


Your sex/gender listed in the National Database, is already linked to your Social Security record, which has long contained your name and sex at birth in addition to your current name and sex.

All names you have ever used, your name and sex at birth and your current name and sex, remain forever in your Social Security record and cannot be expunged, and getting a new SSA record is nearly impossible, being both costly and time consuming, even when you can meet the extremely stringent requirements for doing so.

Your Social Security Number - Vulnerable But Inflexible
http://www.consumeraffairs.com/news04/2005/id_ssn.html