When do you tell?

[jon12345]

Apple Said:
I am simply very distressed to see this forum, which is dedicated to intersex issues, become "refocused" upon gender identity and social adjustment issues related to transgenderism. It is as simple as that.

Apple
I am some what confused by this. My friend is not transgender, In that comment I am taking the phrase transgender to mean a change from one gender to the other. She never changed from one gender to the other, she was never one gender or the other to change from as I understand it. From the way she described herself to me she was pretty much sitting right on the equator of gender. The surgery she had was bottom, and more of an adjustment of gender, not a gender change.

If a got what apple was saying about my post not belonging here, the contention is essentially correct. However the post and others like it do belong somewhere on this website and that place does not exist here. The people like me, who care about you, are also affected by this and are a part of this as well, have their own unique issues. All that deserves a space here, if for no other reason then to keep it in a place were it is more on topic.

PS someone asked why I used the words women and woman and what I meant. Nothing, that comes from writing posts at 5 AM and depending on the grammar checker to correct my bad grammar.

[Peter]

Originally Posted by jon12345

Apple Said:
[i]IMy friend is not transgender, In that comment I am taking the phrase transgender to mean a change from one gender to the other. She never changed from one gender to the other, she was never one gender or the other to change from as I understand it. From the way she described herself to me she was pretty much sitting right on the equator of gender. The surgery she had was bottom, and more of an adjustment of gender, not a gender change.

Oh My! It turns out that Jon is quite the gender theorist. Here, I thought Jon was a distressed boyfriend who had found out that his girlfriend, named Chris, used to be a guy called Christopher, and that Christopher had been raised as a man. How, I hear that Chris is "pretty much sitting right on the equator of gender". These comments shine new light on Jon's original comments.

As Apple said, Jon's original post was a good piece of "creative writing" in the bad sense of the term. It was all too neat to be believable. For instance, I never believed the whole Chris/Christopher line in the first place. Most intersex people have names like, Betsy, Peter, David etc.

Also, the description of Jon's girlfriend's intersex condition was highly unbelievable. Jon mentioned that his girlfriend has a severe intersex condition, where there was both the presence of a vagina and penis, but neither male nor female reproductive organs. I am not saying that such a condition never existed, but it sounds more like a transgender wet dream than reality to me. To put it bluntly, if a child presented the symptoms that Jon describes, I believe that the child would have been surgically assigned female at birth, and that the "bottom surgery" that Jon describes, would have happened about forty years before the time Jon says it happened.

I admit that I cannot find out too much about Jon's girlfriend third hand. If she wants to join this forum, she is more than welcome. Personally, I believe that Jon is trying on an intersex narrative the way some people try on cloths to see if they fit.

Peter

[jon12345]

Originally Posted by Peter

Oh My! It turns out that Jon is quite the gender theorist. Here, I thought Jon was a distressed boyfriend who had found out that his girlfriend, named Chris, used to be a guy called Christopher, and that Christopher had been raised as a man. How, I hear that Chris is "pretty much sitting right on the equator of gender". These comments shine new light on Jon's original comments.

As Apple said, Jon's original post was a good piece of "creative writing" in the bad sense of the term. It was all too neat to be believable. For instance, I never believed the whole Chris/Christopher line in the first place. Most intersex people have names like, Betsy, Peter, David etc.

Also, the description of Jon's girlfriend's intersex condition was highly unbelievable. Jon mentioned that his girlfriend has a severe intersex condition, where there was both the presence of a vagina and penis, but neither male nor female reproductive organs. I am not saying that such a condition never existed, but it sounds more like a transgender wet dream than reality to me. To put it bluntly, if a child presented the symptoms that Jon describes, I believe that the child would have been surgically assigned female at birth, and that the "bottom surgery" that Jon describes, would have happened about forty years before the time Jon says it happened.

I admit that I cannot find out too much about Jon's girlfriend third hand. If she wants to join this forum, she is more than welcome. Personally, I believe that Jon is trying on an intersex narrative the way some people try on cloths to see if they fit.

Peter

I am just telling you what I was told, which more specifically BTW was that the surgeon told her that there were no overis found.
But hey whatever. I am outta here, touch much intolerance, bitterness and paranoia.

[apple]

Peter

Thank you. =)

[apple]

better for me to stay out of it

[Dana Gold]

Peter was right about me; I took it all too personally. And, as for Apple, I now understand what the real matter is (after talking with Peter) something that my naive and gullible self had, in some instances, failed to recognize until pointed out and clarified to me with background information....and that is the sham posts and the people who post them who try to mind fuck the rest of the membership of BLO....sadly, and difficult for me to understand why, but a lot of these are trans who insist and/or demand (in the face of all reason and logic) on being some form of intersex and/or are playing weird head games. These fuckers give other honest and serious trans-people (like me) a bad name and reputation to the general public and, of course, here at BLO...it is outright sickening....and then the resultant trans-bashing from people who have, in all likelihood have experienced way too much of that mind-fuck crap.....I have had a belly-full of all cyber shenanigans; the freaks who either play mind games or arrogantly relate some fantasy.(or worse, are threatening)...... the self-righteous religious idiots..... and then there are the sickos who probably drool over the concept of "another" sex and then confusing and disrupting the BLO threads and delighting in the confusion and infighting thereafter...it would not shock me to find out some of them masturbate while they "do their stuff"....wacko jackals all of them.

http://radio.weblogs.com/0142035/ima.../08/hacker.gif

Anyway, good-bye and take care.

[Peter]

Through an exchange of private messages, I have gotten to know Jon better, and get a better idea of the situation that he is in. Far from running away from the relationship, or otherwise acting badly, Jon has written of his deep love and concern for his partner. I respect Jon for contacting me privately about his concerns, and I wish Jon and Chris all the best.

Peter

[apple]

For the record, if it stands anyway, and is not later sanitized. It is a new world order after all, and a not so really brave one after all it seems.

I have been silently reading here for a long time without posting, and I finally spoke out of concern, because this place seemed to have really changed. Over several months, I saw new people posting, and I saw them being ignored. I also thought I saw, an increasing new shift of focus toward gender identity issues as the predominant topic.

It also really looked to me, like all the old timers had just abandoned the place, and certainly, not in every case, some of the new posters looked to be really "creative" to me. It honestly appeared to me, that some of the status seeking, maladjusted, gender obsessed "forum warriors" crowd, who have for over a decade been having a gender fantasy tea party all over the internet, being apparently unable to settle their gender issues, had begun arriving here and trying to slowly but surely set up shop. I wasn't sure of this, but to me it looked like they were "testing the waters" and slowly becoming ever less subtle about it, because they were talking among themselves as no one here except Dana, who is an old timer, had said anything to them. If anyone else had done so I missed it, and I apologize for not noticing.

It was never about the whole silly "tans v intersex" issue for me. I have long believed that real gender dysphoria is probably rooted in biology, and I don't as "a matter of principle", or some such rubbish, presume all those who play with gender are sick or something, though many are.

It was for me just as I said earlier, ever so stupidly now as I look back, simply this. "1. It is not about gender identity. 2. It is not about gender roles within the binary. 3. It is not about unconscious presumptions of "validity" within some sort of hierarchy of status. I take issue with anybody, intersex or not, who insists upon making this place about such things, because it poisons the well, and it obscures issues of true relevance."

I wish I had not posted here at all now. I have not helped one tiny little bit, and in fact far from it. I don't need anything from anybody here. My issues of body and soul, both alike are settled, and I have a profound lack of talent for helping others, along with an amazing natural ability for messing things up, big time, in such a venue as this. I meant well. I am neither "anti-transsexual or "anti-transgender". Yes I know they are not the same. I feel the entire area, lacking a better word, of intersex and trans politics and support etc., is an immensely complicated and touchy beast of a thing, and I really should remember to stay away.


Dana I don't understand why you feel you must leave. I am really and truly sorry. In no way did I ever wish to hurt you or make you feel you should leave.


Once again I am sorry to have caused trouble. I wish all of you well.


One last thing.

Stop the horrific ethnic cleansing of Iraq and Palestine before it becomes world wide genocide. You are, far more likely than not, also on their list.

[jon12345]

Thank you Peter
Thank you all. Just for the record my posting here was a quest for knowledge, so that I could understand what it is, and what it meant to my SO. Peter and I exchanged PM, and I believe I got the essence of things. I do not know exactly what Chris was, and for all practical purposes, have gleemed enough to know only that it is not really important that I need to know more then I do.
With that I close and say good bye with wisdom from my favorite bumber sticker: "Nothing is perfect, not even the perfect stranger"