Hello--

I have a question that I'm hoping to get people's input on.

How do you see the relationship between intersexual rights/community and gay rights/community? I think that the concept of the gay community has been expanding to include all sorts of people who deviate from the sexuality/gender norm--how do you see intersexuality fitting into that?

Are they or should they be two separate movements that may sometimes have related agendas? Should "I" be added to the growing list of letters (LGBTI. . . )? Should all those letters be redefined into a broader, more inclusive community? I like this last option the best, but then, what do we call it and how do we define the interests and goals of this movement?

Okay, so that was more than one question, don't hold it against me.

I look forward to hearing what people think!

Thanks!
Sarah

Sarah,
I live in Rochester, NY am 45 yrs old, partnered for 9 years and have an adopted 16yr old son who is gay. I've been out as gay for a very, very long time. I've only been out as intersexed for a couple of years. When I came out as intersexed I found that a place at the table had been set for us and suddenly I was this honored guest. The GLBT community knew about us and wondered how to invite us.
We are all presured to be male/masculine/heterosexual or female/femminine/heterosexual in this society. Any variation or combination of variations from this imperative is punished. It makes no difference if your gender heresy is a body with mixed organs, a personality that is femminine when your assigned gender is male or masc. when female, or if your gender transgretion is sexual/romantic attraction to your "own" sex, or your identity if female in a body that is thought to be male. You're a gender transgressor and as such have a comonality with all other gender transgressors, and will be persecuted as such. There is strength in numbers and united we stand a far better chance of forcing our way to the table of equality. I think that seperatism is a dead end street and I'm living and working as if Intersex is just another stripe in the gay flag - for me personally, that is exactly what it is. I can not seperate my sex (intersex), from my gender (intersexed man) from my sexual orientation (mostly men - a little bi) from my social community (a gay man amoungst gay men in the larger GLBT community).
I've been asked to educate the whole local glbt community about intersexed people and our issues with the intention that "I" will be added to GLBTI in the charter of our local GLBT Organization. I'm in the process of writing a seminar to educate social workers with a transsexual woman who was the interim director of the board of directors of our Community Center, it's all about transgender/intersex. Members of the Board of directors are advocating for making intersex inclusion a priority at the state level (Empire State Pride Agenda) and have met with lots of interest. My lesbian lawyer boss went on tv camera yesterday while we were all celebrating the Texas anti-sodomy Supreme Court ruling with a remark that although it was a great day and great progress has been made, the intersexed and transgendered still don't have a place at the table and we must all work tirelessly until that day comes.
I see wonderful things happening in unity. Seperatism looks like a wasteland to me.

Jim Costich

For me it has never been a question of sexuality... I have never had successful sex with males nor females, nor any other... and believe me - I tried! - I just never had the equipment developed enough to make it work... So, it is bittersweet to see the Gays here in SF bay area so elated over this court decision... I am glad politically that sex in one's own bedroom is now to be considered legally nobody else's business.. but do not be fooled into thinking this court decision said anything more than that! The people here seem to think this validates gays as people under the law, but I must say I do not agree that this court decision said that... I wish it did. It is well past time for all people, regardless of their born differences, to become acknowledged by the law in this country... however, trans-gendered and intersexed individuals are still legally disciminated against every day. I was escorted from one of my jobs by security after I opened up to the wrong person, and the ACLU told me I was NOT protected under the law (not even considered human under the law) and they refused to take my discrimination case... - all because some woman freaked about my using the same bathroom she did! Sad, but true. This is the REAL USA baby!

__________________
Faith Manages - Cap

So far, what you are saying sounds similar to what I have been thinking. We're all fighting the same battle and if we're going to win, we need to work together, not against each other.

Jim-what sorts of things are you doing to educate the gay community about intersex issues, and what do you think the gay community can do to make itself inclusive of intersexuals?

Faith-that's why we need clean, private, gender neutral bathrooms for all! As well as anti-discrimination laws that protect everyone, a society that is accepting of difference in other people. . .

The end of anti-sodomy laws knocks one brick out of the wall of oppression, but there are still many left. The focus has been on sex and sexuality for too long. I think what unites the LGBTI community is more complex, and more centered around gender. Down with the binary!

Sarah

Sarah,
In many ways the gay community is already inclusive of the intersexed but don't know our whole story. A lot of us are Gay or Lesbian and already living in the gay community. I haven't come from outside the gay community seeking to be included. I've come from within the gay community as a gay man who is also intersexed. The response I get has been, "We need to add things like genital mutilation and enforced gender assignment, and legal issues of the intersexed to our work toward change." They don't want to leave any part of the community behind, having learned embarrassing lessons from leaving out transsexuals. Inclusion in the GLBT community means having our issues supported by all the other gender variant people (from drag queens, to bulldykes to guys who wear leather and trade recipes, to transsexuals and more....all GLBT people are gender variant). It means having longstanding, healthy, funded organizations run by professionals standing behind lil' ol' us. It's exciting. I haven't had to teach people how there's a correlation between betting up sissy-fags on the playground and hacking off intersexed babies genitals, or refusing srs to transsexuals who have lesbian relationships with their former wives. It's almost self evident to most people who have struggled with gender issues so common to all of us. I'm finding that those who have trouble with it (Like the "wymyn born wymyn only" sexism) aren't very far along in their own identity development. I think they'll be back when their pendulum finds the middle again.
One of the things that helps is that I'm really well known. My son is in the youth group. I sing in the Rochester Gay Men's Chorus, was a member of the local MCC, am now a member of Dignity/Integrity, am a member of the local gay nudist club, the local transgender club....... between me and my partner I'm a very familiar face. A whole lot of people have seen me nude because I go to clothing optional gay camp grounds, lots have had sex with me because Tim and I play a lot sexually so there's some .... um... hands on experience with intersexuality. Gossip in the gay community travels at warp speed and in many ways this has been a good thing for me - I've roped that stallion and am riding him all the way back to the Coral. As it were. Maybe that's one of the reasons I can grab attention so easily.
I sure hope I can do some good. I sure hope some more intersexed people in Rochester will come to the party I'm trying to make for 'em. I'm still all alone here.

Jim

I don't like being associated with the GLBT movement. Why? Because the issues involved are not always related. And because like it or not there's still in this day and age consideralble social negativity towards gays, lesbians and so on. I find it frustrating also that you start mentioning GLBT and people whack you with the transexual lable and are not interested in listening further.

Now I expect there are some paralelles between 'us' and GLBTs, in that they may have faced a 'secret', a social stigma, but for most part there's not so much of a stigma these days. My mother is a lesbian so I was brought up with all that femanistic crap. I say it's crap because as a person of neither gender or both genders (depending on how you think) I realised exquality is bullshit. The world is not a fair place, that sucks, but it's true. So women more or less have improved their sitiuation although people will always say there's more work to do. The same with GLBT people. Their situation is vastly improved although yes, there is much work that needs doing.

Under the GLBT umbrella though I have found there is simply not space for Intersexed people. We are still ignored. Even lesbians I know have no idea what Intersexed is, they think transexual. More power to the transexuals, but I just don't want to be labled as one. Because I'm not.

Sure there are some similar issues, but when we come down to it (and I know it's more complex that this) it is a LIFESTYLE choice. It is not something that you were born with and that you've had to put up with for all of your life. I know it may be something you have to deal with from your teenage years, but that does not compare to some of the horrendus crap Intersex people have thrust upon them almost at birth.

I know I will probably get a lot of people disagree with me. I am interested in their points of view of course. But this is my experience, and my point of view. I'm not about to see myself out to join the masses to get my story across because the masses ignore my story and treat me like a freak. No greif there, no bitterness, just my reality.

I'm tired of people saying I must get involved with the GLBT movement. I'm not interested. I don't want to be 'part' of them and I don't see the benefits of being 'part' of them.

Sorry if I have annoyed people with this, remember, attack the message, not the person.

Girlyboy,
It's alarming to me that you know so little about sexuality that you still consider sexuality a "lifestyle" choice. Sexual orientation and gender identity are neither styles nor choices. The way our brains are wired is no more a choice than the way our bodies are formed. The brain is, after all, one of the organs in the body, and the mind is a function of the brain. I'm sure your lesbian Mom would be very suprised at how much you've missed out in learning how sexuality, orientation and identity actually work. You might want to do a little research and get caught up. It would certainly help you understand your own sexuality and identity better.
The legal and social issues that confront GLBT people are identical to those that confront the intersexed. The origin of all our persecutions is the desire to stiffle anyone who is not male/masculine/heterosexual or female/femminine/heterosexual. Our issues aren't different - they are sum total of all the others. Straight people suffer from the confines of strict gender conformity too. Freeing us frees everyone. No one is really free until we all are.
I've got a puzzle for you. Heterosexual sex is defined as sex between a male and a female. Serperate sexes on seperate bodies. If our bodies contain elements of both male and female how would it be possible for us to engage in heterosexual sex with any male or female? At some level and in some way we're having a homosexual contact and a heterosexual contact with everyone. Can we, or those who love us, ever loose sight of the fact that any sex with us can't be purely homosexual or heterosexual? Now, since sex and gender affect every part of us, not just our genitals, aren't we connecting to people with a combination of GENDER, not just a combination of physical sex? So, doesn't that mean that our RELATIONSHIPS are as mixed as our bodies? I know you've got the answer to the puzzle already. It's in your screen name. I'm not sure it's honest for us to look at GLBT people as "them". After all, gender/sex variance is a halmark of all of us.
There are precious few people in either the GLBT or Straight communities who know what we are, but that is changing daily. That others don't even know we exsist is frustrating, enfuriating and can drive you to despair if you let it. Only if you let it. It's in our best interest to educate them. It's just not fair to blow off any part of society just because they've been kept in the dark about us. After all, haven't we been kept in the dark about us too? Everyone stands to win by coming to understand that the binary concepts of sex/gender are a straight jacket (pun intended) that doesn't fit ANY of us. When speakers present gay issues to straight people, or intersexed issues to GLBT or straight people we always assume that the more they learn and experience the more we'll win over hearts and minds. For the majority of people we reach this is the truth. It is the way we will claim and take our place at the table of humanity - by simply refusing to accept anything less than INCLUSION. This is something we've learned from the GLBT movements. Thank God we don't have to start from scratch ourselves considering we are so few, so spread out and so damaged.
It's important to remember that we don't come from outside the gay, lesbian, transgender, bisexual or straight communities. We've all got honorary membership in one or more of those places because "Intersex" as a social identity doesn't exsist yet. The best it is right now is a modifier to "man" or "woman" as in, "She's an intersexed, bi-sexual woman" or "He's an intersexed, straight, man" etc. Maybe that's all we'll ever really need, only time will tell. It's a sad fact of life that we have to correct people from slapping the wrong labels on us, but we have to assert ourselves or accept isolation. There is some group of people whose gender we don't totally share that we, and they consider ourselves part of. Those are the first people you'll win as allies to intersex because you're already an "us" to them.
We have to kick at the darkness of ignorance until it bleeds the light of understanding in ourselves as well as others.

Jim

I don't think I've ever been discriminated against for being IS. For being female, yes.

In my opinion the central issues of "Intersex" have to do with the quality of service in medical treatment and the consequences of poor medical treatment. Even though I changed my legal status from male to female I consider that a peripheral issue. I haven't had any problems being accepted for who I am.

I try not to speak for anyone else. I won't even claim to speak for "the intersex community", if such a thing truly exists. And I get really offended when people claim to speak for me. This is especially true when people start to lecture me on what I should believe or do because they've made me a part of their group.

>It's alarming to me that you know so little about sexuality that >you still consider sexuality a "lifestyle" choice.

So, a heterosexual daughter has no choice but to have sex with her boyfriend? Come on...

I would note here that many of the mothers who contact our support group (www.xyxo.org) are under pressure from their doctors to abort their xy/xo child. If you ever came up with a test that purported to predict homosexuality you could count on it being used to justify killing children.

cjs

Jim... You have chosen to consider yourself a gay intersexed man... fine that is your choice... But my point is that because of God's indifference, I was born intersexed, sterile and with no clear gender nor sexuallity at all! I was forced by my family and the Catholic church to live as male for the first 20 years of my life... all the while being guided towards become a priest or a brother in the church. I now know this is because they all knew quite well that I had no way of reprodction and in the world of Catholicism, this leaves only service in the church. ie. a sign from God... --- I on the other hand did now wish to become a priest. I consider religion as just one more superstition in the history on mankind, one that is too often used for crowd control and mind control. My choice at that time to leave home was philosophical in nature. But have lived as female for the next 15 years... and it is not a question of being accepted as female - or- being accepted as male... I always knew. I wasn't aware that others were born this way until 8 to 10 years ago... no doctor ever told me until then and but I knew I was "in the middle" and I know I always will be in the middle. I am now making my choice to take a stand against the entire world and God if necessary, that I will no longer be coerced, prodded, pushed, encouraged, or forced in any way to label myself as either male or female.... because am I now neither nor will I ever be one or the other... I am stuck in the middle with you (pun, yes - but true) - and any of you can choose to join with me or make your own choice to be whomever you consider yourself. However, If you were truly born intersexed, this is who you are, were, and always will be. --- I haven't seen my birth family for over 25 years... they refused to accept the truth and forced me to live a lie. No longer will I hide away for their protection from embarrassment. And no longer will I live in their shame-based reality. I am no longer ashamed of who I am!

__________________
Faith Manages - Cap