Just Stumbled In...

[Peter]

I am interested in Rycharde's comments about Australia. Is it true that Australian voters approved an ID system that uses a person's karyotype as a basis for personal identification? I am opposed to using a person's karyotype as a form of public identification. It sounds to me like a deeply flawed scheme that ultimately strengthens the hand of those people who believe that "XY" equals male, and "XX" equals female. Even if it was a voluntary system, it could easily evolve into an involuntary system through social pressures for personal conformity. I am wondering who proposed and advocated for the Australian system. I would appreciate any light that can be shed on this topic.

I think that Rycharde has a right to post opinions that might be unpopular. I don't believe that Rycharde believes in curtailing personal freedom, but is merely thinking out loud about issues of personal identity. I wish that more people would think out loud about issues of sex, gender, and personal identity.

Peter

[Dana Gold]

I am wondering who proposed and advocated for the Australian system. I would appreciate any light that can be shed on this topic.

Many countries ( United Kingdom, and some Western European nations) already have a "national ID card" in effect and others ( USA etc)are considering one ...... and with modern "scientific advances" are proposing biometric identifiers as part of the card technology.....DNA being ever popular has been part of the discussion...how far "they" will go with biometric identifiers is anybody's guess....anyway; a bit (below) on the Australian version (with history/background and current proposals:

Identifiers can be innate, unique and unchanging physical characteristics, such as fingerprints and DNA. They may be physical but subject to change, through for example aging or through gender reassignment surgery.

Identifiers can be assigned by the state or by nongovernment organisations, for example an identity number that can be embodied in an identity card and recorded in a register for statistical enumeration (so many dead souls in Bialystock or Boggabri) or other purposes, the scarlet letter worn by Hester Prynne or the 'F' for 'Felon' burnt into the skin of some pre-industrial criminals. ….snip/////
Identity can be chose - established - by the individual, through for example that person's career path, choice of associates, self-description in particular contexts ('Accountant', 'Methodist', 'Gay').

Identity may be determined through vetting and identity referencing processes. It can also be determined through tools such as biometrics, which seek to re-identify an innate characteristic and match that information with a record.

http://www.caslon.com.au/australiacardprofile1.htm

Individuals would be required to 'produce' the card (including provide a government agency or business with their number) for a range of reasons, including -
• opening accounts and subsequently engaging in transactions with financial institutions, including receiving/sending foreign remittances
• engaging in investment transactions and financial futures trading
• receipt of income, including money from property rental, primary production (agriculture, fisheries, forestry) and some trusts
• real estate transactions
• safe deposit box transactions
• employment
• taxation and prescribed payments
• seeking and receipt of health insurance benefits
• government unemployment, disability, aged pension and other social security benefits
• public hospital services
http://www.caslon.com.au/australiacardprofile3.htm

Another link: http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au...2-2702,00.html

PS: I'm of the opinion that our present (executive/judicial branches) gov't (US) would like to have "sex identifiers" chip-imbedded in the "Real ID cards" to "identify" the the people they deem "undesirable"....for "national security" purposes.

According to George W. Bush it is really easy: if you have XY-chromosomes you are a man. And if you have XX-chromosomes you are a woman.

A past discussion here in BLO Land touched upon this subject; It really would be "federal law" that a person with XY chromosomes would be a man on the Real ID card, and vice versa.....any variations?...probably a Y chromosome would mean man to them.....this is "their" current mind-set.

Dana

[apple]

National ID is more than a mere considered possibility.

Federally required REAL ID is just National ID by another name. The compliance deadline for REAL ID has merely been pushed back slightly.

It is still the law.


"Because states may have difficulty complying before the May 11, 2008, deadline, DHS will grant an extension of the compliance deadline until December 31, 2009. States that have received extensions will, over the course of the waiver period, submit proposed timetables for compliance." - Department of Homeland Security
http://www.dhs.gov/xnews/releases/pr_1172765989904.shtm


Here is video showing a test, by The State Of Texas Department Of Safety, of the version of REAL ID which they propose. It functions as debit card, and the video shows a woman buying gas with it at the pump.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QeS2j7yK66k

I believe it wont be long, before cash is no longer an option, and in fact the Fed has also said the same.


Your sex/gender listed in the National Database, is already linked to your Social Security record, which has long contained your name and sex at birth in addition to your current name and sex.

All names you have ever used, your name and sex at birth and your current name and sex, remain forever in your Social Security record and cannot be expunged, and getting a new SSA record is nearly impossible, being both costly and time consuming, even when you can meet the extremely stringent requirements for doing so.

Your Social Security Number - Vulnerable But Inflexible
http://www.consumeraffairs.com/news04/2005/id_ssn.html

[Rycharde]

Thanks Peter, and thanks to the others who provided factual information on government ID considerations.

I am really interested in learning about these things because I do hope that one day we'll find a solution that everyone can agree on.

Arguments bring us to compromises and compromises lead to a result that can satisfy the needs of everyone to some point.

What I read last year was an article on intersex rights in Australia, it was not the ID that had the X's and Y's it was the voting registration. Some intersex voters decided that they would refuse to identify as male or female and this caused a recount resulting in the solution being that they could use their chromosomes to identify themselves on the voting ballot.

Don't quote me on that, I read the article a year ago and I've been looking for it unfruitfully for a couple days now but I promise to post it if I do come across it. I'm going to ask on another support group I'm on to see if anyone remembers reading it because I've searched the archives and theres some discussion about it on my other group.

On a similar note, I registered at a new health clinic today. Of course theres a freaking crises here for doctors and I can't seem to find one but my midwife got my foot in the door.
Big rainbow triangles everywhere, so impressed!
My midwife called me and told me I just had to see the doctor at this clinic because they are so positive and have other trans/queer/intersex patients.

So when I filled out my forms theres the all mighty gender marker which because they started the forms for me is already ticked as an F. So I ticked off the M too. Left the F.
Got up and brought the forms to the desk. Offered to explain why they were both ticked and she said no, I understand your condition it's alright, we just didn't know which you prefer and since you are here for midwifery services we did have to put female down for insurance purposes.
Then I told her how my last counselor missed our first apointment because she was looking for a female in the waiting room and I was the only person there.
She walked up to a lady and asked her if she was Ms... and I was like oh no. Mr. ..., right here!

So I do need to have both checked off. And I just feel that is more acurate and so does my clinic! I haven't even met my new doctor yet and already I'm so loving this clinic!

[Rycharde]

All right now that I don't have a two year old on me...

When it comes to unpopular opinions and thinking out loud.

We all know the popular opinions but how often do we question our systems? How often do we just settle for what we have and let it be.
Just because there may not be something wrong, like there is nothing wrong with my pentium II there could be room for upgrade and improvement.
Sometimes that comes in the form of something like the short lived sempron phase amd went through with the inevidable return to athlon processors.
But again you never know if you don't challenge. You never know if you don't try.
I have learned a lot. I don't want to argue to be right and this is not about my ego.
It got out of hand when some persons resorted to immature low blows to win a fight but when that happens it should be cut off rather than beating a dead horse.

Learning from arguments is one of the most valuable lessons I have learned in my life. In my grade 11 social studies class the teacher randomly separated us into two even groups.
He gave us a topic. One of the topics was abortion.
The people on team A despite what they believed in had to defend abortion. The people on team B had to dispute it.
We had to find five key points to why there should/should not be legal abortions. We were 16 and out of that room came some of the most convincing arguments. We also discussed the legalization of marijuana, prostitution, slavery even the list goes on. Once a week we were given a new assignment.
The best was when he first split us up he asked who believes in X and everyone who raised their hand was put on the team opposing it. Wow. Fun!

The point was not who won, but what both sides could learn from the debate.
It is never about who is right, but what is true. It is true that there are bad things when it comes to topic A, but it is also true that topic A benefits society in this way. Then looking at the facts you decide what is right. Not who is right just because they defend one solid opinion.

Someone who will tell you straight up they can only see one side is always wrong.

I will argue the unpopular just to get all the information and learn more and I think thats a skill not to be taken for granted.

[Kailana]

Wow, ok, i really had a lot to read in this thread.

I really want to repeat what i said in the header above. With so many people here it is common for someone to find offense now and then when touchy subjects come up. I am sure i have posted a few unfavorable posts and responses in the past.

I really find your history amazing and appreciate how you chose to share it with us.

As for your personnal views on how you see yourself, i am proud to say i am intersexed, true hermaphrodite, transsexual, Male phenotype transitioning Female. I tend to think that although i am transitioning female, i am really a hermaphrodite. As to what id like on my birthcertificate and drivers license, i would prefer an H or maybe an I.

That is just my preference, i believe each of us has the right to have what we believe ourselves to be. Perhaps i think of having an i.d. that reflects how i feel and think of myself is what is best for me.

I am open publicly as an intersexed transsexual. I would suppose there is some conflict there when it comes to things like passing as a woman, Its kinda years off, or if ever, as a thought in my opinion. I hope i'll look a lot better in a few years then i do now, as so far, very little has changed within the last 14 months of HRT.

As to your questions and thoughts, please keep them comming. I find it very reassuring to know there is another who doesnt fit stereotypes of what being IS means. i believe there is way too much variation in gender to make clear to everyone in society what someone is, all i will say is there is alot more then Male or Female. And i would really love all Governments, religous organizations and the general public to acknowledge that we exist. For the future i have a great deal of hope, that the world will accept those of us who don't fit the specific genders of Male or Female.

A question is only a question if someone thinks about what is being asked. So ask away, so others like me can think about these things too.

oh, and i really did enjoy thinking about your post.

[Rycharde]

Thank you Kailana!
What an awesome name I must say! It's my old male name rearranged! I used to first present myself as a boy when I was younger in online video games with the handle Laik, and my friend in Taiwan would be Kail. We used the names in real life too and since its just such an odd name I thought it worth the mention.

It was very nice to wake up to your post.
I too am glad to see someone who you can't jam into a box.

Have you ever looked into Muslim views on Hermaphrodites? You may feel very comfortable to see that many Muslims who are born seemingly male have found a holy place in the society as women and they go out without HRT or anything, in public and are actually accepted in some places. Which I totally thought was awesome.

A lot of religions worship and respect the intersex individual, in many ways. I think it is the widespread misunderstanding and stigma that has thrown us off this century but that hope is very very near for acceptance.

Not one single person I know in my new home town misunderstands or is unaccepting of my condition and I am very open about being "Daddy" even though I do not pass for my life right now because I can't bind my breasts since I do intend to breastfeed my new baby come August. So everyone sees this "girl" who is being called "Daddy" by his daughter in public and if they don't like it well TS!

Speaking of my pregnancy there are a lot of interesting points about it. My hips don't, will not and can not separate, and neither will my abdominal walls as my midwife has pointed out. Instead of a pregnancy belly I have a thick stalky trunk of a body, still very muscular on the front because I do have the abs to brag about and my whole body, save for the newly developed breasts is still very male.
I can really now say "Hey Look, A pregnant man!" and thats now how I really look!
At 25 weeks I went from a size 28 waist to a 34 and gained 30 lbs!