When do you tell?

[Dana Gold]

I feel violated,

Since when are you the judge of who can or cannot take part in this thread or others? How about intersex (or DSD, if one wishes to remain "politically correct") peoples that do transition....are they now not any more intersex or DSD and just a forking transsexual?, as you imply....since this man's girlfriend falls into that category. You have posted less than a dozen times and you yourself are laying claim to being intersex and yet you are not sure of that, either. BLO, in the years I have been here has always respected and welcomed intersex, allies and friends. Read the Bodies Like Ours Community Guidelines....You feel violated?????....how about those you may be insulting and rejecting....like me!...who has "been through the shit" of living with a DSD from early childhood and now see trans-bashing from a "not sure" intersex person.....I feel violated.

[Dana Gold]

Although I will not retract or delete the above post, I wish to, nevertheless, apologize for that rant, as I have not followed the Guidelines I mentioned by an apparently to be recognized "flame" of another member. It seems that having been through the experience of living with an intersex (or DSD, as some would prefer) and then "transitioning" (an "overlapping issue?) later or earlier in life somehow "brands" the person who does such as a "T interloper", as once was remarked in a much earlier thread....one who hence would be cursed by (some) other intersex or DSD folk who may have had a bad experience with or somehow gained a negative impression of trans folk. How sad......it's bad enough the "normals" to have shat upon such folk...and then to have it happen from those you least expect it....or as this quote points out:

those who do not really have overlapping issues, will be either unable or unwilling to understand

..... it is to be expected...oh, well........life is difficult on forking planet Earth...the subject of this thread: When do you tell is more about who do you tell.....best way is to keep to oneself...to hell with love, relationships etc....just an invitation to more "slaps in the face", pain and misery...especially if you have "gender identity and social adjustment issues"

[Dianne]

Originally Posted by Dana Gold

...to hell with love, relationships etc....just an invitation to more "slaps in the face", pain and misery...especially if you have "gender identity and social adjustment issues"

Ain't that the truth!

I try to focus my anger on intolerance, in whatever form. Exclusionist attitudes create "them" and "us" thinking and that's what is turned against us.

[apple]

Dana

Please go back and read my post again. It is clear that you read a great deal into it that was not there.

No way do I either say, or even secretly believe, that IS transitioners are "all just trans" ......... or anything even remotely like that. I am not "invalidating" IS people who change sex/gender. Neither do I think that trans people are in any way less "valid" than IS people.

I don't know what this silly statement of yours is about ... "laying claim to being intersex and yet you are not sure of that", ... but I think possibly it smacks of a certain assumption other than what you intended.

I have no doubt at all that I am intersex. I also have no doubt, that having an intersex diagnosis is not a point of personal validation, and it confers no status other than 'having an intersex condition'.

This is basically what 'I am' saying.

1. It is not about gender identity.

2. It is not about gender roles within the binary.

3. It is not about unconscious presumptions of "validity" within some sort of hierarchy of status.

I take issue with anybody, intersex or not, who insists upon making this place about such things, because it poisons the well, and it obscures issues of true relevance. One may endlessly 'hash out', 'hash in' and rehash such issues to no point, on any of the many trans forums. Just don't bring that crap here!

[Dana Gold]

Alright, I stand corrected; you definitely have an intersex condition.

Just don't bring that crap here!

....is that your final "order"....are you now in charge?.... you have somehow determined that people who visit this forum should not be engaged in issues that mix in gender identity, and gender roles in the binary when relating personal experiences about having an intersex or DSD condition....and you feel justified in imposing that dictum into what was once an open forum website. With this in mind, please tell us all what should be the rules of engagement?....the issues of true relevance you speak about....so that those who trespass upon and poison the well of Bodies Like Ours can leave you to your satisfaction.......and leave once and for all.......since I'm one of "those" who have committed the act of speaking about "that crap", I shall take my crap and go....I shall instruct others that I know of (especially transfolk and those with DSD and "trans-gender issues" ) to bypass this site lest you and others admonish them and make them feel like the crap you have associated them with.

[Peter]

I ask that people try to be respectful of one another on this forum. I noticed that Apple implied a willingness to discuss gender issues outside of the gender binary, but no one picked up on that. I know that Dana is also very attuned to intersex issues. I am often faced with my own painful experience of shame, secrecy, and denial around my own body. I think that self-discovery is often similar to unpeeling the layers of an onion. As Kate mentioned, continuing intimacy will be a project of self-discovery involving both Jon and his girlfriend. I believe that the success of Bodies Like Ours depends on a rather delicate balancing of various personal perspectives. The best way to keep the conversation going is by making a positive contribution to it.

Peter

[Dana Gold]

After careful consideration and re-reading some of Apple's posts, I can see where Apple is coming from. However, I will still take my crap and go. Peter mentions the self-discovery part; well gender identity and where one fits in the binary is a dynamic part of that process...perhaps I've misunderstood, but I do know that in the past years there has been a lot of trans-bashing here and rancor toward discussion of "gender things" ...and I do acknowledge that sometimes trans issues have gotten into an uncomfortable mix with intersex issues......however, since I'm, well, a trans-person (with a definite DSD) perhaps it's time to leave and move on to somewhere else....outside the closed fixture of cyber-space and into the 3-D real world....and, no, I am not seeking sympathy, empathy or any other "understanding" .... it is time for me to go, just as others have left ...we all evolve and I have nothing more to offer here except emotion-ridden rants, which only I can understand and has become of little value to others. I leave without ill-feelings toward anyone here and wish the best "whatever" to all here.

DG

[Peter]

I think that you have personalized this situation way too much. I am not sure that you really understand what Apple is referring to, even if Apple could perhaps have phrased it a little better. I can appreciate what Apple is saying. There are levels and meta-levels of the situation. I believe that your situation is very different than the situation of Jon's girlfriend. I choose my words carefully, because I believe that Jon is a sensitive person, who cares about his girlfriend, and I wish him all the best. You can send me a PM, or contact me, if you wish to discuss this further.

Peter

[apple]

I really should have been a bit more diplomatic. I let it all build up too long before speaking. I certainly do not want you to go Dana. You have a lot to offer, and you have long contributed here very effectively.

Dana please try to go the next step with all of this. I surely know that you can. Our past should inform us and not limit us.


Peter

Sorry I caused trouble.